Orgyen Tobgyal promotes violence
In Paris last year at the Rigpa Centre, Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche publicly said about spiritual teachers, “Such great beings, whether it coresponds to western ideas or not, if they kill someone, it’s fine.Whatever they do is for the benefit of sentient beings” and “Beating hard increases wisdom.” Click here to see notes on the full talk. The quotes above are are in question 3.
His talk fostered beliefs that support Sogyal Lakar/Rinpoche abusing his students and details examples of other such behaviour from spiritual teachers that he holds up as something to emulate. He doesn’t believe Sogyal did anything wrong. In saying that he saw “nothing extraordinary” in the back scratcher, he was referring specifically to regular beatings Sogyal Lakar/Rinpoche gave students using his back scratcher. These assualts were verified by the Lewis Silkin Independent report into the abuse.
Is this a teacher you should be supporting, following, inviting to your centre or listening to? Are these ideas ones you want to believe? Are they healthy for society and individuals or harmful? Should you be part of an organisation that invites such a person to their centre?
And yet Rigpa takes the advice of this man
Orgyen Topgyal is one of Rigpa’s “spiritual” advisors and he is about to undertake a major visit to Australia (details here: https://www.rigpa.org.au/orgyen-tobgyal-rinpoche/).
But I suspect that many in Rigpa in Australia and elsewhere are not aware of what he said in Paris and that he is a man who publically supports Sogyal’s abuse of his students. I think they need to know this, and they need to be encourged to really think about whether these are ideas they should be taking on board. So please share this information with your Rigpa friends and ask them if these are healthy ideas to be taking on board.
Of course his full talk to Rigpa Paris is indoctrination that supports the power structure that allowed Sogyal to abuse his students for decades, so by the time they read down to question 3 where he makes clear his view that abuse by teachers is perfectly acceptable, they may have lost their ability to see what he says clearly, so you’ll need to get them to read question 3 or quote it to them.
Dangerous beliefs are the core of the problem here and until we make it clear that such beliefs are not healthy and not acceptable in the West, abuse can still happen in Tibetan Buddhism.
Current and previous students of Rigpa can participate in private discussion on this and other abuse-related topics on our What Now? Facebook Group. If you’re interested in joining, please contact us via the contact page and ask for an invite.
People from any Vajrayana sangha can join the Survivors of Vajrayana Abuse and Allies Facebook group for support. Click the link to request to join.
Anyone who has left a Buddhist sangha that had an abusive teacher can join the Beyond the Temple Facebook Group. The focus in this group is not on the abuse, but on ourselves and our spiritual life as we recover from our experience and look to the future. Click here and request to join.
The What Now? Reference Material page has links to a wealth of articles in the topics related to abuse in Buddhist communities. For links to places to assist in healing from abuse see the sangha care resources page.
Those of you who are interested in ‘keeping Buddhism clean’ could ‘Like’ the Dharma Protectors Facebook page, which posts links to related articles as they come to hand.
he also called the brave eight demons. there’s a demon here alright, and it’s him.
Very good point Tahlia. It is horrifying that the Australian sangha would chose him as a visiting teacher, a strong statement.
Beating is part of their education.I’ll quote from: The Life and Times of Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro, by Dilgo Rinpoche and Orgyen Tobgyal:”Monks were punished ten at a time.When a flogging was called for, R insisted on four or five hundred lashes, never a mere hundred, and he alway watched from the window of his residence as the punishment was meted out” page 41
Indeed. And I don’t believe that it has something to do with buddhadharma. It’s more like a cultural tradition. As it was in Europe not so long ago, too.
Yes, it was corporal punishment– which we had in the school I taught at in Australia (won’t tell how many years ago that was lol). Sometimes I saw them line up thirty or forty boys and just start whipping. The monastic institutions in the Nyingma school (and probably the others) have “disciplinarians” whose job it is to keep discipline. How they do that– and whether or not some abuse their authority– isn’t really relevant to this discussion in my opinion. It obscures the issue, like connecting the Catholic Church’s abuses with the fact that they might have used corporal punishment in Catholic schools (which they definitely did). I am not condoning corporal punishment, but I think the two discussions are separate. And I think the case above was a case of abuse, of “punishment” gone too far.
@Joanne,
You said it! The punishment went WAY too far! In fact, 500 lashes could kill a child! I do think the punishments ARE relevant to this discussion because it’s the way the children are treated in the monasteries that produces the abusive narcissists in the first place.
Why do you use two nicks, joanneclark7 and Joanne?
@catlover
“because it’s the way the children are treated in the monasteries that produces the abusive narcissists in the first place.” based on this statement you generalize it to ALL monasteries and nunneries? have you any studies to back this up? How do you know this to be the case?
Actually, if you read the book, these punishments happened exclusively at Kahtok monastery, a monastery he was also responsible for, the book makes a point to report that he never did this at his main seat in Dzongsar and behaved quite differently when there.
It’s also reported that when he took over responsibility for Khatok, the moral there was extremely lax, first thing he had to do was driving out the many women who co-habited with the monks in all kinds of functions because the Khenpos there were unable to do so.
For whyever he thought it fit to do at Khatok, he was according to that biography, not indiscriminatingly violent, and he was not violent with his attendants in any way described of Sogyal in the Silkin report. Sogyal can’t have learned keeping the attendants in a constant state of terror from old Dzongsar Khyentse.
Thankyou for that @windhorse as I have not read the book. At one point some Rigpa students were putting together a documentary on the students of JKCL and those who knew him and the project fell apart. It would be helpful to get the perspective of any of the living monks of Khatok – how it was for them. I have read stories how a very great master with realization can be appear violent when needed and yet there is no physical harm to the person, but I have not any direct experience with this!
I think the relevant point about the violence/corporal punishment in the tradition, rather than looking at specifics, is just that there is an acceptance of it as having value and not being ‘wrong’, an acceptance that we had in the West until relatively recently. That doesn’t mean it’s acceptable, it just means that we have to make it quite clear that it’s a part of the tradition that we most definitely don’t want to take on board here.
Actually, to be able to reliably use the wrathful aspect of the four bodhisattva activities without doing harm you need to be a mahasiddha, able to directly see the minds of other beings and totally beyond ego-clinging.
There are very few practitioners who are that highly realized.
The rest trying this is just fooling themselves.
@thewindhorse,
Who is invested with the authority to decide who is a mahasiddha and who isn’t? That is a BIG problem because anyone can say that someone is a mahasiddha, no matter what horrible things they do. For example, practically every single lama says that Trungpa was a mahasiddha. What do you think? Do you think Trungpa was a mahasiddha? (I think anyone who has been reading my posts already knows what I think of him.)
If the teacher has harmed somebody with “attempted rough compassion” he apparently wasn’t a mahasiddha, or he would have seen that his action would harm that person because he had known the person’s mind and real needs.
So, no, from this evidence, Trungpa can’t have been on that high level of realisation.
@thewindhorse,
So, it throws into question the credibility of all the other lamas who say that Trungpa was a mahasiddha! If they are so enlightened, they would be able to figure out that since Trungpa actually harmed people (and animals) with his actions, then he can’t have been be a true mahasiddha. They would also be clairvoyant enough to see it as well. So doesn’t that mean that 99.9% of all the lamas are NOT true mahasiddhas, since they don’t have the ability to tell the difference between a real mahasiddha and a narcissist pretending to be one?
@catlover
Your conclusions like “99.9% of lamas” makes you lose credibility- can you list all the lamas out there and how you came to such conclusions? How do u know what each and every Lama thinks? Are u clairvoyant? It’s dangerous and ignorant to leap to conclusions if you don’t have direct knowledge.
If you want to know just start interviewing lamas and write a solid conclusion after that- don’t just ask people here as they don’t really know. It’s pointless really.
If you are done with dharma then stop your suffering and look for a path that makes you sing.
I would indeed assume that the majority of the lamas that currently teach are not fully liberated/mahasiddhas.
Of course I can’t know, but even the teachings are saying that in this time of degeneration these become increasingly rare. So, not being many of these around seems likely.
I don’t think that Sogyal and Trungpa were bad apples from the start of their coming to the west. They were both quite young and curious and suddenly without any cultural restraints. They fell to temptation during the process of getting involved with westerners and western culture, something that likely hadn’t happened if they had stayed part of the Tibetan side of things the traditional way and had come to the west, say in their 50ies after the traditional education, decades of retreat and then having married a Tibetan wife.
For example with Marpa and Milarepa, Marpa has treated all his other students kindly only Milarepa was subjected to what can be called abusive acts. But, Milarepa was not traumatised at all, he attained high realisation and became the founder of the most popular lineage in Tibet.
That would be the hallmark of a techer using bodhisattva activity of the wrathful type rightfully: Uses it selectively only on a portion of the students and these students attain realisation and are in no way traumatised.
Have any people on the receiving end of SR or Trungpas “treatment” attained realisation? In both organisations are students who have made progress on the spiritual path, no doubt of that (those who do are for the most part ordinary members who just practice what they were taught and benefit from this effort) . But as far as I see it both organisations have so far in decades failed to produce people who are qualified vajrayana lineage holders. That’s a fact.
What a disgusting creep Orgyen Tobgyal is! He just makes me SICK! Unfortunately, his views are not all that uncommon among his peers, even if they aren’t as vocal as he is! I wonder if people are saying he is a mahasiddha. Again, who gets to decide if someone is a mahasiddha?!?!?
“Again, who gets to decide if someone is a mahasiddha?!?!?”
Only someone who really is can tell that. Someone like Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche probably could have, but of course that’s just a guess.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Can’t just rely on someone’s word!
No, but what would be proof? Even the display of siddhis is not reliable.
The one proof for me would be a teacher who produces outstanding students, that you can see students visibly progress on the path under his or her guidance, making them kinder, humbler, more wise compared to how they were before.
Because then we can assume that the teacher has the blessing as well as the teaching skills.
I think we all have intelligence and so we all can discern who might and who might not be a mahasiddha. I know they say only another mahasidda can discern, but isn’t that one of those dodgy beliefs that just support the fuedal structure? I think we all recognise great wisdom and compassion when we see it. If we look at someone without reactivity and without projecting our hopes and fears onto them, if we look with clear insight, we can see who is a great person and who isn’t. Great beings show their realisation by their wisdom and compassion in the way they live their lives.
Truly great beings do not harm anyone. If they hit someone to wake them up, it would be a rare thing, timed perfectly for the one person for whom it would be effective, and it would have the desired result, because that being would know that it wouldn’t harm that person; they wouldn’t do it if it would harm them. They would not go around hitting everyone and causing injuries and trauma.
I think we should assume that there are no mahasiddhas alive today unless we see one fly through the air.
@
Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, who was so close with Trungpa and Orgyen Tobgyal!. I think it’s obvious that he couldn’t tell either, since some of his students turned out to be some of the worst of the bunch!
The above comment was my response to @thewindhorse.
“There is a Tibetan saying: children are like drums, you have to beat them. But my teacher never beat me.” Ringut Tulku Rinpoche, May 24, 2018, Rigpa Centre, Berlin.
Dear LeftLodeve,
I hear your comment and it’s astounding that Ringu Tulku didn’t rebel against all of this.
Your name says it all. My heart goes out to those who moved from near LL. All the best and I hope things go well for you and others whose lives have been disrupted. May better times come!
Hi Starshine, thanks for the reply. In fact, to say that your heart goes out to me, or anyone really, is the nicest thing someone’s said in a very long time. In all of this, everything that’s happened and all the people talking, debating, opinioning on this blog and others since then, nothing is quite as comforting as a simple response of basic humanity. To know someone’s heart goes out to me or anyone means so much in such a long time of bewilderment, sadness, pain, and the feeling of utter betrayal and humiliation. Sure, I can discuss dharma and tibetan lamas til the cows come home but none of that really deals with what to do when you have brought yourself so fully to the utopia of something like Lerab Ling, like the community of Rigpa and all of that, I mean, gee, I don’t even have the words for it, because that’s not really where it happens is it, not in the words. It goes deeper and i guess that’s what makes it so thoroughly devastating. Makes you loose your compass in life. I’m not so keen on facebook, so i won’t be joining the groups there but your response sure is the closest ting to a comforting hug as could be on this blog and that’s what i can really use at this time, so thanks.
You’ve got it, hugs and caring wishes to you and everyone who moved close to LL to be close to that Utopian ideal.
We all went through it in Rigpa. But I always had a life far from rigpa and it’s easier to rebuild. Still, it’s hard for all of us to give up these dreams and trust.
I hope that day will come when we will be able to feel better.
My words are clumsy, but I’m sure I’m not the only one feeling like this.
Take good care and pass the care around. Never forget that you are cared about. And so is everyone in your position.
I can totally see what this does to those who put so much effort and time into something that later turns out to have quite the nasty, immoral side that makes the whole thing come tumbling down.
Since I read the Silkin report I wonder if the financial donations I did at Rigpa retreats went to one of Sogyal’s mistresses instead of some dharma or humanitarian project. Ugh….
And if Sogyal felt the need to keep all his inner circle businesses that secret from the wider sangha, it points to me to that he full well knew how unacceptable and problematic his behaviour there was.
May I ask, in hindsight, how much of all that was going on in the inner circle was visible to the wider Lerab Ling community, for example the workers keeping LL going or the Lodeve staff doing office work for Rigpa. Was the “inner circle” in LL a kind of sealed off cult within the larger organisation? Did the inner circle people ever discuss their experiences there, were they even close enough to non inner circlers to do so?
To me that inner circle always looked like the prominent figureheads that didn’t change much over the decades, that everyone knew from seening, announcements, projects etc and then the ever changing anonymous girlies, attendants, cooks etc that had not much contact to the wider sangha at all, that nobody knew
What exactly was the dynamics there, from the pov of one of the working staff on and around LL?
It’s easy for me to forget that not everyone who needs the warmth and support of the Facebook group are in it. I also send you a cyberhug, and know that I and many others feel for you and for all of us who were spiritually abused even if we weren’t abused physically, sexually or emotionally.
So very much apprecited!
sorry, appreciated 🙂
Here’s the thing- some of these lamas are very conservative and traditional and their way is very different from the western way. The Tibetans don’t think it’s abuse – hitting their kids or monks may well be done with compassion and a good motivation so we really can’t judge. It’s a cultural difference and we have to respect there are differences . Dilgo Khyentse was extraordinary but I didn’t get to meet him. Regarding JKCL – I cannot know his motivation- I just know of many incredible stories around him. How can u know a person’s motivation?? I have met many a great master and have seen qualities and witnessed actions that I do not see in the ordinary person.
If we don’t want to get teachings from these lamas then don’t!
In the case of Sogyal that is totally different as he is just a charlatan and an opportunist who likely has a brain trauma and mental health issues. That for sure is abuse. Some of these other lamas have very traditional and conservative ways and they don’t understand the western mindset. I personally think OT should stay in the east as his ways don’t jive with the western way. But if he goes to Australia then people can ask him questions and dialogue about it. He certainly isn’t going to hit someone! If they don’t think he’s suitable they can decide.
But what I’m hearing in some of these comments is people who might have been armchair Buddhists or never found a connection to a teacher think they have all the answers through reading god knows what on all of these lamas and truly I think that is ignorant to jump to conclusions. Do you know these lamas? Have you asked them questions yourself to understand their take? Have you met them? Have you practiced under them? The best way to understand is to ask a lama directly. And that goes with everything. Stop reading so much and get out there and meet these people directly if you really want to know.
Just practice the dharma if you want to practice and follow a teacher who suits you. If u don’t like what the Buddha taught, which would be far more beneficial for people to read the actual teachings vs a few bios and books, well then leave it. If u want to actively help stop abuse then do something beneficial and productive like write the head of your school a letter. I’m in such a bad mood…
@concerned,
You said: “Here’s the thing- some of these lamas are very conservative and traditional and their way is very different from the western way. The Tibetans don’t think it’s abuse – hitting their kids or monks may well be done with compassion and a good motivation so we really can’t judge. It’s a cultural difference and we have to respect there are differences .”
So female genital mutilation in some Middle Eastern/African countries is okay too? According to your logic, anything that is accepted in another culture is just fine, as along as it’s done in another another culture, so we should just stop judging, right? May as well just close up all the international human rights organizations who protect people from abusive “cultural” traditions because we need to “respect” all these “traditions” and just allow it to keep happening! Wow! just WOW!
I should know better than to comment here. I keep saying I will stop, but then someone says something that really makes me want to add my two cents.
Wow that’s an extreme leap from what I said. It’s like you read something and then earlier in your postings you made these extreme sweeping conclusions about ALL lamas and the WHOLE system and the same with your concluding about what I said.
Investigate by getting in there and meeting lamas directly and ask them questions, take time to observe them. If they are difficult to get appointments with due to being rock stars or having tight controlling inner circles then that’s a red flag and move on. It’s a lot to wade through and I know it takes a lot of patience. But someone like Sakya T’s sister is remarkable! And she would be a safe bet, highly qualified, down to earth, not power hungry, and accessible.
But if you are satisfied with your own conclusions that the whole system is corrupt, that each and every lama out there is connected and support each other therefore corrupt, and the teachings are not valid, then just be satisfied with that and move on to something that suits. There is no reason why anyone needs to feel badly that they tried something and it didn’t work out and wasn’t the right fit. I feel there are countless paths out there and people just need to let go and find the one that works.
@concerned,
Oh, I see, it’s just *certain* cultures we shouldn’t judge. If it’s Tibetan culture, we should not judge them, even if they abuse their children and consider it “compassionate” in their culture.
“The Tibetans don’t think it’s abuse – hitting their kids or monks may well be done with compassion and a good motivation so we really can’t judge. It’s a cultural difference and we have to respect there are differences .”
Your own words. I drew my conclusions from what you said.
I am done debating with you, as I can see it goes nowhere.
@catlover
I have seen many a Tibetan mother or father sharply giving their child a slap or light hit to stop the behavior- it is common to see them scold with this action and I never saw it as abuse in the manner they would do it. There was so much love there between parent and child. And I saw the disciplinarians (many of them smiling and gentle) in a few monasteries only gently tapping a monk who might fall asleep or not be paying attention. I never saw abuse. Their culture is so different than ours and I respect the differences. It depends on motivation. I don’t think my statement that you quoted was wrong… please read it again.
Now in the west if I ever would see harmful beatings from a lama to western students I would speak out. That is sure. Have you directly seen a lama you followed abuse students?
You are reactive! It doesn’t help to jump to extreme conclusions and make sweeping generalizations.
Is your motivation to try to get people to leave the dharma?
Why? Some of your comments make me think this is the case. I would never encourage Catholics or Christians to abandon their religion because a few priests were abusive. Or tell Muslims to abandon their religion based on extremist activities. There are rotten apples and problems in every system but there is also good, and there are many many good lamas, and people do benefit from the paths they choose and hold as precious. Let them be.
@concerned,
We weren’t talking about little “love taps” from mothers trying to discipline their children. We were talking about children being beaten and punished in the monasteries. That was what was being discussed here. Then you said that we should “respect” these kinds of actions because it’s another culture, so who are we to judge? Well, if everyone thought that way, there would be no point to international human rights groups. I don’t care to get into an argument with people about whether certain practices are right or wrong in various cultures. I believe there should be universal standards that apply to ALL cultures, and in fact there are. It’s true that we can’t stop all abuse, but that’s what human rights groups are for. They are there to help set a standard in human rights, and there are also universal human rights laws that all nations are supposed to adhere to, (not that they always do).
How about letting me be too? Do you think you’re going to change my mind about how I feel about the rampant corruption within Tibetan Buddhism?
I don’t need to go and interview every lama out there in order to draw a reasonable conclusion about their system, based on my own knowledge. I am not saying that ALL the lamas corrupt, which is why I say 99% instead of 100%. I am leaving 1% just in case there might be a few who are rare exceptions. However, I still doubt there are very many.
I should remember why I don’t wish to post here anymore. I am sick of arguing with people who jump on everything I say. I am done here, at least for now. Don’t bother to write to me anymore. People keep saying they want me to post and then when I dare to offer my opinions, which are just as valid as yours, I get jumped on. It is not a friendly place for people with differing views.
@concerned,
Also, do you think I haven’t met any real lamas? You’re doing what you’re accusing me of doing, which is to jump to conclusions. You don’t know me and you don’t know whether I was an “armchair Buddhist” as you call it, or whether I had any “hands on” experience. So maybe you could stop judging others, just as you’re asking me to do.
@catlover I’m just trying to add a perspective as I think some of your statements are wildly inaccurate and your generalizations are not based on careful investigation. Such as 99 % of lamas and all monasteries have the practice of beating etc. There’s a danger people can become too reactive and lose perspective and fall into this way of thinking that is not based on research/truth. My mantra now is to get information directly.
In thinking about it, my cultural difference ramblings of Tibetan parents and monastic disciplinarians might have been totally irrelevant here. I am sorry for getting off topic-
That is to clarify…
of your conclusions that 99% of lamas are corrupt, 99.9% of all the lamas are NOT true mahasiddhas, since they don’t have the ability to tell the difference between a real mahasiddha and a narcissist pretending to be one, and that all monasteries practice beating.
This is what I have problems with.. these kind of statements. I do judge these statements and have a right to question as they are sloppily concluded and can be harmful.
@Concerned,
This is am last response to you.
I truly do believe that if one went to these lamas and tried to talk to them directly about these issues, one would not be any closer to the truth. They are masters of deflection and deception. Do you think they are going to *tell* you all their secrets, even if you asked them directly?
It is totally safe to assume that at least 99% (shall I be generous and say only 80% or 90%?) of the lamas aren’t able to tell the difference between a true enlightened being and a fake one because they prove it again and again through their endorsements of totally UNenlightened beings! Even Dilgo K. couldn’t seem to tell the difference! They show by their own example.
I didn’t say ALL the Tibetan monasteries abuse kids, BUT I think it’s pretty endemic in the system and these kinds of punishments are not at all uncommon. Defending it as a “cultural” thing is dangerous, imo.
Just for the record, I would never say ALL the lamas are abusive or ALL the monasteries abuse their kids, but I can say the numbers are very high within this tradition.
We will never know what % of lamas abuse their power, and people think differently about this depending on their experience. I do think we can, however, accept that though we might put the figure at 24% others have good reason to put it at 99% or 50% or whatever, and we don’t need to argue about that but rather just accept that that is their viewpoint based on their experience. We can read what they say and express our differing opinion without feeling that we need to try to change their view.
I accept that @Catlover has her viewpoint, and even if I don’t agree with her, I’m happy for her to have and state that viewpoint. same with @concerned. It doesn’t mean that I have to think as she does, or try to make her think as I do.
What we can do here is try not to be reactive in our conversations and speak without defensiveness. We don’t need to defend our point of view or attack someone else’s view, we’re just here to share our views and hopefully learn something from each other. It’s not easy when it’s such an emotional topic, but I do find it helps not to take anything personally and just remember that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
@ catlover : cultural differences don’t change using ‘attack’ methods – instead healthy discussion is far more productive – guessing that’s why female genital mutilation prosecutions aren’t that common and would only succeed in driving the practice further underground. Education is often deemed a better way to proceed by those with far more experience.
Ogyen Topgyal Rinpotche came in France in august 2018, he and Neten Chokling, Jigme Khyentse Rinpotche, Tsetrul Pema Wangyal Rinpotche, Tsawa Rinam Rinpotche, and the Lamas and monks of Pema Ewam Tcheugar Gyourme Ling practiced a Drupchen of Vajrakilaya the wrathful form of Vajrasattva.
They said that it was to pacify the conflicts, obstacles and sufferings of all kinds that beings are facing, individually and collectively.
They needed money for this event because it costed a lot, and made an appeal to the generosity of Western Buddhists.
Many of the high Tibetan Lamas are connected and support each others, which makes situations and changes difficult. If an ordinary disciple have a problem with one Lama, this person will not find easily help and understanding from others, even in an other lineage.
OTR is also close to Dzongsar Khyentse, who is close to Sogyal, who are all close to the Nyingmapa lamas of Chanteloube (Pema Wangyal and brothers), who in turn have close (mostly hidden) connections with Jigme Rinpoche (Shamarpa’s brother), and support him, and thus the Karmapa chosen by Shamarpa (not a gossip but a first hand witness), who has the support of Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi Rinpoche who is close to OKC and the Lamas of Chanteloube etc.
All this is a political and financial game in which innocent disciples are sacrificed. All these Vajrayana stories of OTR about samayas etc… are just means to control disciples and keep power, it has nothing to do with the true Dharma.
Did all these Lamas lost themselves in a maze of politics and business, or do they really believe in what they say ? I really wonder.
For the record, I’m not a neophyte. I practiced and studied the Dharma seriously and with respect. I also worked for several of these high Lamas, therefore I know about the big amount of money they collect during an event in western countries and how it’s important for their high standing and projects.
At several occasions they asked me to clear the administrative and legal obstacles to these events.
Westerners are not alone to complain, many Tibetans also disagree with the behavior of some of their Lamas. They don’t agree with OTR ideas ! I had very trustful Tibetan friends who was unhappy with these Lamas and their foolish understanding of the Dharma. One of my friend was a former monk who had been abusively beaten in his monastery. I witnessed myself little monks beaten by the monk in charge of discipline, they were distressed !
@Julia Lovert,
It sounds like you are starting to connect the dots regarding how all these lamas are either openly or secretly connected to each other. Congrats on starting to see the light!
I totally agree that a lot of Tibetans are fed up with lama politics and abuses! In fact, I would say that a lot of lay Tibetans, and/or former monastics who have escaped the system, are probably a lot more disillusioned and disgusted with lamas than many Westerners, who still believe in Shangrila myths and cling to the idea that most lamas are saints, (with only a “few bad apples” in the barrel).
@Catlover,
Sadly I don’t start to connect the dots, please don’t patronize me ! You are not the only one who noticed these things.
I personally met many of these Tibetan Lamas, studied with them and worked for them because of some of my professional skills. Therefore I was a first hand witness for many things more or less honest, and disagreed immediately and openly with wrong doings (sex, money, abuse of power…). I warned people already at least a decade and a half ago (and did it also more recently on this blog), but some of the Lamas and the “true believers” were so angry that they punished me in all kind of ways. This is one of the reason why I don’t give my real name now.
However, even if I don’t believe in Shangrila since a long time, I have a different opinion than you concerning Tibetan Buddhism in its whole. I know that there are still genuine Tibetan lamas among all these rotten apples. I met them and could observe them. A few are famous and some others quite unknown by the public. There are also many genuine practitioners Westerners or Tibetans. There is also a genuine Dharma available for those who seek it carefully.
@Julia Lovert,
“Sadly I don’t start to connect the dots, please don’t patronize me ! You are not the only one who noticed these things.”
How is that patronizing? I really meant it. I am relieved to see that I’m not the only one who notices because sometimes it feels like no one else is noticing.
@Julia Lovert,
I probably shouldn’t have said you were “starting” to connect the dots. Sorry for saying “starting”. Not being psychic, I have no idea what your past experiences are with lamas, how much you have seen, or how much you know.
@Catlover, yes it was the word “starting” which was difficult to swallow.
I think we can see the connections and the degree to which status rules for a lot of these lamas without necessarily deciding that the whole tradition is corrupt. We can keep an open mind and not make a final judgement like that, so seeing these things don’t mean that we’re on a path to that same final conclusion. And don’t forget that there are different schools. The Nyingmas (old school) are certainly looking like the fundamentalists in the religion.
The various centers where OT, Choling Rinpoche and the monks from Bir did do drupchen over the years certainly co-financed the expenses.
Honestly, I never got the notion that the Chanteloube lamas were in any way close or supportive to Dhagpo Kagyu/Karmapa Thaye Dorje. When Thaye Dorje visited there for the first time, none of them attended (I only did because I was already there, curious, not because of devotion).
And I don’t know how anyone could know about “secret” ties between them who is not among the also very tightly knit old students batch there (mostly old students of the lamas father, Kangyur Rinpoche) I wouldn’t know how you have that information, unless you worked at Chanteloube or Dhagpo Kagyu Ling in a responsible financial capacity.
Plus Dhagpo is quite well off, they certainly don’t need financial support by other lamas.
I also happen to know that Sogyal asked Tulku Pema Wangyal to teach at one of his events because I was present when he did it (was at a time when Tulku Pema Wangyal acted as Trulshik Rinpoche’s attendant and visited a Rigpa retreat with him), he steadfastly declined when at other times he is quite willing to turn a gathering spontaneously into a teaching session. The Chanteloube lamas (Chanteloube being the center Dilgo Khyentse founded for Europe) afaik never taught at Rigpa centers and only visited for events like Trulshik Rinpoche being there. Afaik Sogyal hardly ever visited Chanteloube.
From that non-cooperation in the face of having Dilgo Khyantse as their common teacher I assumed that there is no big love for Sogyal on the side of the Chanteloube lamas apart from co-funding the drupchen visits of the Bir monks and lamas.
Yes, i too wondered about Julia’s claims regarding secret support for the Thaye Dorje Karmapa, via Shamar Rinpoche’s brother. Perhaps it comes down to physical proximity, given Jigme-la & the Chanteloube lamas all reside in France
There is a transcript of a talk/tape of OTR that you can find on an old site that seeks to defend Shamarpa in his battles with the other Regents circa the 1990s. It’s a dog’s breakfast of a transliteration but the point i wanted to make is that in it OTR describes how he told Shamarpa that he, OTR, didn’t have a karmic connection with Shamarpa, he would always be on the side of Situ due to their previous history. He’s referring to the time of the terton Chokgyur Lingpa about which OTR has written an account.
Actually I have heard the story that the founding lamas of the three centers there on the hill, Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse and the founder of Dhagpo, Gendun Rinpoche were close. These three got the land and premises on that hill over the Vezere river from a rich donor named Benson (part of the Benson family of the Benson and Hedges cicarette empire)
Then the old lamas died, Kangyur Rinpoche’s family took over the responsibility for Dilgo Khyentses center, Dudjom Rinpoche’s son Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche, who died this year, Dudjom Rinpoches place and Lama Jigme, the brother of Gendun Rinpoche Dhagpo Kagyu Ling. There also was the Karmapa shism that caused quite some havoc in the Dhagpo Kagyu community, Gendun Rinpoche declared for Sharmarpa and Thaye Dorje and after his death his brother and Shamarpa ran the place.
While the founding lamas were apparently close to each other, the successors were not from anything I have ever seen there.
Plus, Nyoshul Khenpo died in Dordogne, he was cared for by the lama sons and family of Kangyur Rinpoche as well as his wife during his last time. Not even then Sogyal was a frequent visitor, who also claimed Nyoshul Khenpo as one of his masters.
So no, I have no reason to believe there is any particular closeness between these lamas, apart from those relatively few who dance on nearly anyone’s wedding, so to speak, like Dzongsar Khyense, who extensively taught at Chanteloube as well as Rigpa and at other places.
Oh, by the way, among the Kangyur disciples there is also a bad apple, a guy called Robert Spatz, who appartently got teaching permission by Kangyur Rinpoche and then proceeded to found and run a full blown cult of the rather very bad kind.
Oh and Shenpen Dawa and the lama sons of Kangyur Rinpoche completely stayed out of the Karmapa issue and afaik never publicly endorsing any candidate. The policy seems to be “stay the hell out of any unpleasant politics”. Pretend it’s not there, even if you drive by every day (Dhagpo is visible from the street on the way from the place where Kangyur Rinpoche’s children live and Chanteloube.
Therefor I doubt that there is much contact between Dhagpo and the Nyingmas in Dordogne.
Though mainstream Nyingma seems to be mainly on the side of Urgyen Trinley from what I was able to observe, through the Dalai Lamas endorsement of Trinley Dorje and close connections to the Nyingma lineage of Trinley Dorje supporting Kagyu lineage holders.
So nope, nothing points to the Nyingmas and Thaye Dorje endorsing Kagyus in Dordogne supporting each other.
In fact, asked for advice, Jigme Khyentse Rinpoche once told me “there is no need to have an opinion about everything”. That to me means “stay the hell ouf of things with your mind, beware of opinions, they drag you into duality”
And he definitely has a point there. For example if I look at politics these days worldwide, it harms my quite unstable sense of bodhicitta if I start to think about the proponents of it, what they do and say.
I see that “not getting involved” is a necessary part of the path because bodhicitta goes deeper than pointing at people and going “oh, look, what nasty thing x did to poor y”. Can there be buddhist social activism. I believe yes, and there should be more. But conventional social activism is often based on passing judgement for someone against someone, and that goes against certain buddhist core tentets.
Hi Windhorse,
Spreading the misinformation again by beng sloppy? Ain’t we? 🙂
Bernard Benson had absolutely nothing to do with B&H family. His fortune had its source in the defence sector, not tobacco.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Benson
But yes, it was his bequest to Nyigma that started it all around Chateau de Chaban (of Chaban Delmas fame). Other millionaires followed suit as years went by, and thus a Little Tibet of sorts was established there, Chanteloube included.
The latter was initially funded by Gerard Godet, as his bequest to Kangyur Rinpoche’s family, Tulku Pema Wangyal included:
https://khyentsefoundation.org/patron-kings-part-xiii/
As for Dhagpo Kagyu Ling, Nyigma being themselves did nothing with the land granted to them by Benson for years, so Benson decided to bequest some land to Kagyu too, and then Dhagpo Kagyu Ling came into existence. Only then, did Nyigmas move forward and things began to happen on their side too.
Kind regards,
Marek
PS Not that it matters here but Bernard was Jewish (of British, French, Hungarian, and Polish descent, or so he claimed)
@thewindhorse
“The various centers where OT, Choling Rinpoche and the monks from Bir did do drupchen over the years certainly co-financed the expenses.”
Yes by making a special appeal to the generosity of their members for the event, I ‘m sure of it. I was asked with all others.
“Honestly, I never got the notion that the Chanteloube lamas were in any way close or supportive to Dhagpo Kagyu/Karmapa Thaye Dorje”
I was a direct witness. They didn’t came at the first visit, I know I was part of the close team. But things changed. I have direct information as a first hand witness and worker, but can’t tell more if I don’t want big problems. However I don’t mind who they support in itself, this is their right. After the very bad experiences I had ,being close to high tulkus and being their disciple, I don’t trust any tulku’s title now, and don’t mind who is the good Karmapa or not. I practice by following the instructions of an old yogi who past away, and stay far from communities, thrones and big events. The fact is that it’s always hidden bargains and politics and that I became a scape-goat in their games like some others, and suffered a lot and lost a lot.
‘Dhagpo is quite well off, they certainly don’t need financial support by other lamas.”
This subject was not explicitly in my comment. Nevertheless, how do you know that @thewindhorse, unless you worked at Dhagpo Kagyu Ling in a responsible financial capacity? Did you ?
I don’t work in the Dordogne centers anymore so I don’t know myself but I have indication that they still need money, as always.
” I assumed that there is no big love for Sogyal on the side of the Chanteloube lamas apart from co-funding the drupchen visits of the Bir monks and lamas.”
My main point, because the post is about OTR, is that they are close to OTR and Dzongsar, and subsequently to Sogyal (I witness it in Bir for example). Here again this is their right, they do what they want. It’s not an accusation, except for the fact that theses Lamas lost themselves in a maze of politics and business
But, the important fact is that if a victim seeks the help and support of these Lamas he/her must be careful it can turn against her/him. As it happened to me. Concerning their link with Sogyal, you may make more search on Rigpa websites, they performed rituals in Lerab Ling not so long ago.
@thewindhorse excuse me, I leave the conversation here. It goes too far. This blog is not a tribunal, and I ‘m not an accused.
You obviously don’t like what I reveal and as I’m used to very tough and dangerous reactions from people (I don’t know who read this blog and who you are), so goodby for the moment. You can comment my answer of course, but don’t be annoyed if I don’t answer again, it will not be by disrespect, but just because I protect myself from my own negative emotions and from anger of others.
If you wish to “reveal” something, please give more evidence of how you got this supposed information. Because it’s not supported by anything that can be seen at these places AT ALL.
Your prickliness when your story is put under scrutiny is suspicious. You are not the only person who knows and frequented these places.
Anyone can claim anonymously over the internet to have had some not further specified insider contacts that gained them “special secret knowledge” about something.
@thewindhorse, as I can see that you are upset but not dishonest, I hope, I understand your doubts. I will try to give you some evidences but not indication which could reveal my identity.
I can’t invite you in meetings I had a few years ago ! so I give you indirect indications. For example the visit of Dilgo Khyentse yangsi Rinpoche in 2014 which is an indication of what happen behind the scene : After two days of teachings organized by Songtsen (chanteloube.pagesperso-orange.fr/programme.htm) Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi Rinpoche visited Dhagpo Kagyü Ling in July 2014.
or the visit of Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi Rinpoche to the Karmapa in Bodhgaya in 2016.
Again, it’s not an accusation against the Lamas of Chanteloube, I don’t say that these Lamas are bad or wrong in their choices, I just demonstrated that Tibetan Lamas are almost all linked by political and business interests and that therefore disciples are easily sacrificed in this game.
Your tone is very aggressive, suspicious and contemptuous, and I don’t have the shoulders to bare it, so again goodby for good. Your reaction is incredible! What I revealed here is nothing, really nothing, compare to the big things I know.
But this exchange is an occasion for readers to see why people who have been victims don’t speak in public. Why there is an incredible silence. Time to time victims try to give some information, and of course can’t reveal their identity, so their evidences are limited. They hope that readers will make research or try to understand using common sens, but it’s not the case the revelations of victims who speak are most of the time received with such violence and counter-arguments (which are not supported by evidences neither) that they give up.
I give up too, by the way you make a confusion between prickliness and fear. I’m just afraid and for good reasons. These Lamas are powerful, I’m just an old and isolated woman.
Hi Julia. I just want to say that I resonate with your story having a somewhat similar experience.
Fortunately a Gelug Geshe who has known me since I was a child, recently said that these Lamas who misbehave need to be exposed. So he is one teacher who is supportive and there must be many more who also don’t want to see the dharma tainted and peoples’ faith shattered.
I applaud you for being brave enough to name some of these Lamas who are misbehaving and for encouraging people to see that they will work together and cover for each other if necessary – to the detriment even of their own devoted students.
I also want to say how much I admire you for continuing along the path, making the dharma yours and not giving up. I wish I had the energy to do that. I respect your need for privacy but so wish we could talk face to face!
Anyway, all the best Julia and may you swiftly realise shunyata! 😊
May you swiftly realise shunyata too! @Rose 🙂
“I can’t invite you in meetings I had a few years ago ! so I give you indirect indications. For example the visit of Dilgo Khyentse yangsi Rinpoche in 2014 which is an indication of what happen behind the scene : After two days of teachings organized by Songtsen (chanteloube.pagesperso-orange.fr/programme.htm) Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi Rinpoche visited Dhagpo Kagyü Ling in July 2014.
or the visit of Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi Rinpoche to the Karmapa in Bodhgaya in 2016.”
And that again proves absolutely nothing in terms of deeper collusion of the whole lama community with misbehaving lamas.
If anything, I find it promising that Dilgo Khyentse yangsi is open minded to both sides of the Karmapa problem. I don’t see any political or business issues here. He and the two Karmapa candidates are the young generation, if they have to run the show as main lineage holders eventually, someone has to start to heal problems created in the past. We all know how intimately related the Nyingma and Kagyu schools have been over the centuries, many high lamas being lineage holders of both traditions.
I am sorry to that you are leaving here and that your situation is so unpleasant and harsh.
I can imagine very well that you tell tru facts as I heard similar pov from other persons.
If you have suffered from abuse by Lamas I would be shocked again.
Certain “lamas” really try hard to make life on earth worse in order to turn peoples mind toward true Dharma ?
@Adamo,
“Certain “lamas” really try hard to make life on earth worse in order to turn peoples mind toward true Dharma ?”
Is it a joke you made or again a “dangerous idea that support abuses “, it’s not clear ? Do you really believe what you wrote ? I hope it’s just a joke ! It can’t be serious.
Ha, ha, imagine
– at the Rigpa center Dzogchen Beara, instead of the “Care center” the “Tribulation center” (A haven of sorrow to make you feel worse in order to turn your mind to true Dharma).
– At Lerab Ling instead of the retreat “Meditation and well-being” the retreat “Meditation and discomfort” (only for masochistic Rigpa students true believers)…
and please feel free to bring your cat or your dog at the meditation retreat. It will cost you nothing in addition. We will starve them, and teach you how to beat them, burn them in order to make them purify their bad Karma ( a method from the Trungpa lineage).
@Julia Lovert,
I can’t speak for Adamo, but I had quite a different understanding of what he meant. I think he was actually saying he is sorry to see you leave the forum, and he thinks you’re telling the truth about abusive lamas because he has heard stories from others as well with similar views and experiences. Then he said he would be shocked again by your stories, as he has been shocked before when he heard other stories about lama abuses. Then the last thing he said was the following:
“Certain “lamas” really try hard to make life on earth worse in order to turn peoples mind toward true Dharma ?”
I think he meant that so-called “lamas” (notice that he put quotes around “lamas”) use their so-called “crazy wisdom” methods to make people’s lives worse, in the name of “turning people’s mind toward the dharma.” I don’t think he was defending those methods. My impression was that he is on your side, but didn’t express it as clearly as he might have wanted to.
Adamo, please feel free to clarify whatever you meant. I am only stating my own, personal impression.
@Catlover, Yes, I agree with your understanding of the comment of Adamo. I don’t think that Adamo is a bullier, I was just very surprised by the sentence, and uncertain. You are right , I am almost sure now that it’s a kind of sarcasm toward the lamas not me. Ouf!
@Adamo, thank you for your sympathy, and accept my apologize please for my uncertainty about what you meant.
A joke, a joke. Sorry I am so unclear.
Now that it’s public, I can tell what the meeting I was mentioning in my previous post with about. It was about reconciliation in the Kagyu lineage, and the fact that the two Karmapa will meet in the future. They met in France on 11 October 2018. (You can see the announcement in Facebook at @Karmapa.)
However the problem still stay the same for disciples : “Tibetan Lamas are almost all linked by political and business interests and therefore disciples are easily sacrificed in this game. “, and I was sacrificed as a close Kagyu disciple of the Karmapa. I suffered a lot of abuses and was wrongly accused during many years by some Lamas and their close disciples, because I didn’t want to take side and refused to be involved in wrong doings, and certainly because of jealousy. As many other disciples, I often asked the Karmapas to do something for reconciliation.
As the two Karmapas wishes, and as I wish too, I will do my best to strengthen and preserve the lineage… by my own solitary Dharma practice (no more big events, thrones and communities for me). Because there is no lineage without true practitioners.
With this important event, I don’t think I need to keep my pseudonym and to comment on blogs, Facebook groups or forums about abuses, I will be very busy with reconciliations matters and find a meaning to what happen now to me and to other people in my situation.
Many people feel happy with the new, I am satisfied, but I feel also deeply sad because even if there is reconciliation, there will be no recognition of the abuses, no reparation and no healing for those who have been broken.
The only thing which come to my mind now, is :” let the karma do its work, it can take lives ; and let your practice give results, this is the only consolation.”
I think we need to remember that there are a lot of things that we don’t all see, but because we don’t see it ourselves, doesn’t mean that it isn’t true or didn’t happen.
For a long time, I and others didn’t accept as true what those who spoke out about Sogyal said because we saw no evidence of it ourselves, but we weren’t where the people who did experience abuse were, so there was no way that we could know or experience what they experienced, but that didn’t mean that they didn’t experience it. Only when 8 of those who were abused got together did we open our eyes.
So now, when one person shares their experience, when they speak of what they actually experienced or witnessed themselves, I think we need to do them the courtesy of listening without judgement. I can not see what is happening in the room next door and so think what happened in the room next door couldn’t possibly have happened, but it could. My experience of someone as postitive, does not negate someone else’s experience of that same person as negative. My experience doesn’t mean he or she is all good, and the other person’s experience doesn’t mean he or she is all bad, it means that both sides of the person or situation are people’s genuine experience, and both need to be accepted as truth.
So if someone else’s experience casts a new and possibly uncomfortable light on our own experience, we don’t need to react against it, we can just let it shine, and let it illuminate our mind so that we see the situation from a broader view point.
” I assumed that there is no big love for Sogyal on the side of the Chanteloube lamas apart from co-funding the drupchen visits of the Bir monks and lamas.”
My main point, because the post is about OTR, is that they are close to OTR and Dzongsar, and subsequently to Sogyal (I witness it in Bir for example). Here again this is their right, they do what they want. It’s not an accusation, except for the fact that theses Lamas lost themselves in a maze of politics and business
But, the important fact is that if a victim seeks the help and support of these Lamas he/her must be careful it can turn against her/him. As it happened to me. Concerning their link with Sogyal, you may make more search on Rigpa websites, they performed rituals in Lerab Ling not so long ago.”
That’s a cultural thing in Asia in general. You will find it hard to get any lama involved in any business concerning another lama/group/religion, particularly if it concerns “dirty laundry”. Try that in Japan and with zen teachers there and you probably get the same reluctance.
They performed rituals at Khandro Tsering Chodron’s funeral who was the wife of Khyentse Chokyi Lodro, also happened the aunt and kind of stepmother of Sogyal, who died at Lerab Ling.
So what. You assume politics going on there. Now if there is politics you also have to assume that, as common in politics, not everyone there likes everyone else, despite them on occasion appearing together in public or “party reason”, smiling and shaking hands.
Hi Julia, I sympathise with you wholeheartedly. And share your experience:
“If an ordinary disciple have a problem with one Lama, this person will not find easily help and understanding from others, even in an other lineage.”
which your repeat again:
“But, the important fact is that if a victim seeks the help and support of these Lamas he/her must be careful it can turn against her/him.”
The fact that the above is ignored in responses to your posts speaks volumes in itself.
I also wish to congratulate you on your intuition viv-a-vis thewindhorse. He or she is playing with a loaded dice; likes to appear as someone well trained and knowledge; even privy to insider-info. If you want to see more of his tactics see exchanges between him and I from few days ago. Notice for example, how he continuously refuses to answer my counterarguments, my calling him or her on spreading falsehoods (including his/her perverted understanding of the Teachings). My take on him/her is that he/she is a troll, or at least an ardent apologist for […].
And here is a little gift to sweeten the day for you:
Yours in the trauma (as in from “one canary in a coal mine” to another), Marek 🙂
Thank you @Marek, it’s really kind. I felt so bad after that exchange. I appreciate your sympathy wholeheartedly too.
@Julia Lovert,
I totally sympathize with you on this issue too. It must be hard to experience a lama’s dark side and then go to another lama for support, and not receive any. It just underlines the point I was trying to make earlier about how they are a big ole’ network, at least for the most part. (I guess I shouldn’t say they are ALL connected because some of them are splinter groups who are basically shunned by the rest.) However, it’s pretty safe to say that most of them are connected, and it’s true that if you try to seek support from them regarding another lama’s negative actions, that would be very hard to find.
@Julia, this statement of yours resounded with me: “If an ordinary disciple have a problem with one Lama, this person will not find easily help and understanding from others, even in an other lineage.”
It took me five lamas, two lineages, before the penny dropped and I stopped going to Dharma centers or seeking help from lamas. Plenty to do on my spiritual path without all of that. For me, I just feel so much the tragedy of it all. So sad.
Thanks for sharing.
and auspiciously you chose a video with the place I prefer on earth : Swayambhunath . I like the song also 🙂
Hi Julia, I share in your fear too. It is healthy, and a sign of one’s contact with the reality, I have learned not to give a shit about it anymore though. Most people do not realise that TB is also a sorcery, an inheritance from pre-Buddhist traditions of Tibet and the environs. Since I have no choice but to be a warrior anyway, and my yidam is a wrathful deity, I am learning to enjoy an occasional spar. Thus the likes of the wind arse can take a hike. He/she is punching anyway way above his/her weight so to speak. But than, please, do not think for a minute that I take such matters lightly, and without due respect. Kind regards, as always, Marek 😉 PS As to the Kathmandu Valley it was the only place where I have felt at home; a gift of sorts. So I want to share my emotions on that with you. I even find this video moving in spite of the fact that DK appears there. O well, sometimes even the most pristine table cloth gets stained, not unlike the Dharma. It is my Kathmandu though, like the Dharma, and no-one can take it away from me, so there, I have declared myself here in the open 😉
@Marek
“Most people do not realise that TB is also a sorcery, an inheritance from pre-Buddhist traditions of Tibet and the environs.”
I don’t have the courage to develop about this subject here, but Yes, you did understand, not only they make problems in their enemies’ social life (work, family etc) but they practice wrathful deities against them (even if you are not a real enemy and vulnerable !)
I also practice protection mantras for this reason since many years. After I left the Buddhist communities I met a yogi very respected in the valley of Kathmandu to ask him what was wrong with me. I was traumatized, and was blaming myself for all the bad things that happened to me (I already spoke Tibetan at that time).
When I sat at his feet he immediately took my head between his hands and smiled kindly telling me that all was fine with me, but that I really needed to always keep protection mantras on me. He insisted that it was important and gave me an amulet.
I don’t think that sorcery is only a fairy tail (for @Catlover) because I had very bad tangible experiences. I tried my best to understand that it’s all mind, but sometimes it was overwhelming, thus I use protection mantras and it works. I’m happy that you have also your wrathful deity protection Marek.
@Julia Lovert,
Oh, I totally believe in the sorcery of lamas. I think that some of these lamas have really strong psychic abilities that many Westerners aren’t even aware of, (even if they aren’t as super human as devotees might think). They are still very powerful, and often use their powers for no good. I totally believe in that. The only thing I don’t believe is that they are super saints who are angelic and totally enlightened. I think they are human, and some are nicer than others, but none of them are *perfect* beings. It’s the “perfect beings” part that I think is a fairy tale. However, I do believe that through learning certain shamanic, ancient techniques, they can develop some really formidable powers. It’s just one more reason to be wary of many of them.
@Catlover, Thanks, ok we agree then.
@Julia Lovert,
We certainly do agree on that!
I have had plenty of experiences with lamas using their powers as well, which leave me with no doubt that lamas have powers. I don’t believe they are omniscient, holy beings. I also don’t believe that their powers are unlimited. However, I do believe that they can enchant people, uses curses and spells, tap into the spirit world, and a whole host of other shamanic type things. Some may use their powers for good, but all too often, many of them also use their powers to harm others. They also use their powers to enchant and draw disciples to them. As I have mentioned here before, Sogyal tried that with me, and it was hard to fight him off.
Sogyal is very powerful and I think one reason it was so hard for some people to leave Rigpa is because he may have used his powers to “bind” them to him. I think other lamas do this kind of thing as well. It’s one reason that people remain around abusive lamas and believe in them no matter what they do. That’s all the more reason we shouldn’t shame victims of lama abuse because it’s really hard to break free form an enchantment.
I know some people are going to say I’m crazy for saying these things, and I am going to get jumped on, but I totally get where you are coming from, Julia. I know exactly what you are talking about re lamas and their magical abilities.
@Catlover, you are far to be crazy. These are facts. I met other people who had similar experiences and who are mentally healthy and logical persons.
@Julia Lovert,
Thanks. 🙂 Yes, I agree that neither one of us are crazy, and neither are the people you’ve met who have also had experiences. But people will jump on us anyway, especially if they don’t believe in ‘magical’ abilities. They will think we’re nuts, lol! 😀
Hi Catlover,
I am responding here because there is no possibility to do so under your post in question:
No, I do not consider you crazy.
You have a right in fact to your reality, your take on it, and your EMOTIONS involved, contrary to whatever anyone or anything else has tried to teach, instruct, or direct you to believe, or subdue you into believing. (I hope I do not sound preachy here 🙂 )
Kind regards,
Marek
Thanks, Marek. I didn’t think you would be one of the people who would jump on me. You seem quite reasonable to me. 🙂
Also, I don’t think you sound preachy. 🙂
Catlover, you would probably count me as one who would jump on you for what you have disclosed, so I would like to share that I also have experienced such things as what you and Julia call “sorcery”. In fact, learning to work with them has become the crux of my spiritual practice– the crux of my life– and I use both protection mantra, via Tara, and bodhicitta and sheer stubbornness. My experiences are very powerful and cannot be fully explained by any Western psychology (I have a degree in that) or pragmatic ideas. I would love to understand them better however, so I thank you and Julia for this conversation!
Oh and I also receive much protection from the Dalai Lama. Of that I am certain now after thirteen years of studying from him. His approach to Dharma and to life, his “presence”, changed my journey from one headed towards sure madness and suicide to one that is simply very difficult. So that’s just to explain why I am so loyal towards the Dalai Lama!
@Joanne,
Thanks for that. 🙂 Yes, I’ve had experiences too which cannot be explained away with any sort of “mundane” or psychological explanation.
Despite my disillusionment with lamas and the Tibetan Buddhist institution, I still love Tara and I think she’s a really great deity. In fact, I can totally see her appearing in wrathful form to kick butt on some of those “lamas”, such as Sogyal! You go, Tara, lol! 😀
@Joanne, @Catlover, I love Tara too, it’s practice helped me a lot and still help me.
sorry I meant : ” it’s a practice that …”
I have been subject to ‘black magic’ for years. Recently I was given the opportunity to give a full public account of my experiences with DKR but I have held back partly for this reason!
Are you able to share the protection mantra recommended? I believe the Prajnaparamita mantra is very good as is having compassion….
@Rose,
“I have been subject to ‘black magic’ for years. Recently I was given the opportunity to give a full public account of my experiences with DKR but I have held back partly for this reason!”
I don’t blame you at all. In fact, one reason I use a “nick” here and don’t reveal my true identity is to protect myself.
@ Catlover – me too but it would be obvious to many in my country and ex sangha who I am.
Actually was contacted by the ‘big man’ himself after I began posting my story – coincidence?
@Rose,
Nope, not a coincidence. 😀
Asking @Julia, @Marek or anyone else who may have constructive suggestions they are willing to share on this subject
Hi Rose,
I would not feel comfortable sharing my experiences (threats and cures included) via a public post. I do not know whether I can be of any help to you but if you want, you can contact me via FB. See the note on that in response to Julia below (posted at 2:29 am).
Kind regards,
Marek
PS Not that I want to become your teacher, guide, helper, therapist, or whatever.
Thankyou for the offer Marek – I’m not on Facebook tho. Also I understand your not wanting to be public about yor experiences and remedies.
All the best
Yes @Rose the Prajnaparamita is very good, but there are also specific mantras against black magic.
Lama Zopa and his students shared some mantras on the web like this one ; “the Zung of the Exalted Completely Pure Stainless Ligh”. It’s at the bottom of the list at this link :
https://fpmt.org/education/teachings/texts/mantras/
or you might choose or add an other mantra which inspire you, and keep it confidential.
As you maybe already know, the Zungs are part of the Kangyur, they are called also dharanis or incantations.
@Rose… and compassion of course, you are completely right, thank you to recall it…it’s very important! I don’t think that mantras work without it.
Thankyou Julia I will research! 🙏
** Just want to clarify I’m not saying this particular Lama is or has brought this upon me but as with others, I do fear attracting more!
@Rose
I was told if you develop bodhicitta (which I have not) then nothing will harm you, and just be spacious and don’t point your mind toward fear based thinking. Protector practices are actually supposed to be to protect us from ignorance, kleshas, etc and protect us from falling into dualistic thinking. that said, I personally would be wary of taking spiritual advice from anyone here and would wait on that question until you are with a teacher you trust. I think you know best what to do.
@Julia Lovert,
I’m glad to hear that you met a real yogi who offered you protection and who believed in you. I am open to the idea that there may be a few good lamas who are like this yogi you mention. But I also think that these yogis stay good because they are far removed from all the lama politics and they are practicing far away from all of that.
@concerned – thankyou for your thoughts and I agree with you.
Also I don’t allow fear to ultimately determine my actions and have had the capacity to walk where angels fear to tread many times!
I think having a good motivation is a great protector in itself 🙂
@ Rose
So well said! You are so right. Fear is not a good motivator for anything in life.
Hi Julia,
Thank you for your response. Would you care to divulge the yogi’s name? If not here, I can be found via FB (for example Contemporary Buddhism group, or my own account where there is no picture; I am the one who studied at Jaggielonian University of Kraków). We could become friends via FB and chat via Messenger if need be.
Kind regards,
Marek Czepiec
PS I am asking out of curiosity as Nyigma Nagpas (yogis) are my natural environment so to speak.
It’s not a secret. It’s Lama Wangdu. He has mainly Tibetan disciples and a few nice western students who try to put him on the website, but the result is funny !
I’m old now, I don’t travel anymore, therefore I don’t see him physically anymore.
Hi Julia,
For me it is Boudha, and especially Boudha Stupa. It is a sentient being for me, like a human being.
And I could write a whole book on a relationship she and I have. Maybe one day I will.
And “auspicious” ? I love this word.
Marek
PS Not that I need to remind you, have trust in your protectors; you have many. 🙂
“I also wish to congratulate you on your intuition viv-a-vis thewindhorse. He or she is playing with a loaded dice; likes to appear as someone well trained and knowledge; even privy to insider-info.”
LOL. The conspiracy theory crew is riding again……
But yeah, that’s the typical reaction of conspiracy theory mongers. If you don’t wholeheartedly 100% agree with them, they accuse you to be part of the eeeeevvvviiiiillll enemy conspiracy. Doesn’t matter if it’s about chemtrails, man made climate change denial or the supposed eeeviiill lama conspiracy.
How very conveniently dualistic. But yeah, Trunpa got one thing right in his days, his warning about spirituality turned into a dualistic, biased, worldly thing.
Well, you have to live in the confindes of your mind, not me, fortunately.
Here I would ask for a certain piece of tolerance toward windhorse. I guess the horse has changed name twice in blogs, but horse writes straight and and has a clear opinion even I do not share many of its pov.
Hi Adamo,
Would you kindly note that thewindhorse neither “writes straight”, nor are his opinions “clear”, and when called on his lies, misrepresentations, misinformations, and self-projections, steadfastly refuses to respond. So what am I to “tolerate” exactly?
Kind regards,
Marek
And one more thing Adamo:
The attitude the windhorse adopts viv-a-vis those who report on these pages feeling abused is not excusable either. (The evidence, you say? See for yourself above)
Kind regards,
Marek
But at least do all those lamas believe their own stories very much. Oh, what a mental freedom……
With regards to Orgyen Tobgyal: If I ever would meet him again, so promised that I prescribe that madicine he considers to be so helpful. Beatings.
I would treat him, full load of wisdom.
Italian style!
And you don’t believe the story in your mind? You are the one person on this earth possessing the absolute truth.
Dear All, and especially Dear Administrators,
Is this sight geared towards the needs of all those who feel themselves abused by “Lama, Buddha, Dharma, and/or Sangha”, and are looking for a way forward, whatever that my mean for them, or else, of all those who feel inclined, desperate even, to act in defence of any such, their perversions included?
Kind regards,
Marek Czepiec (Sangye Gyamsto)
Nobody here has denied that abuse has happened and there are victims that suffer.
Stop the whiney hpyocrisy just because not everyone agrees with everything you write.
Hi thewindhorse,
Why don’t you be a man or a woman for a change, and for ones, respond to counterarguments posted by me above in response to your falsehoods, and self-projections, rather than attacking me with childish remarks like “whiney hypocrisy”. “Whiny”? “Hypocrisy”? Is this another self-projection of yours? Can’t you do any better than that? Am I beginning to get on your nerves?
And a good day to you too,
Marek
PS As for living within the confines of my mind, I chose them over the confines of your mind any day, or night for that matter.
This blog is not a group, it is a public site and so anyone can read and respond (unless they become abusive), and everyone has a right to their opinion. There are Facebook groups geared specifically to the needs of those abused.
@Marek I suggest that you don’t take what @windhorse says so personally, and @windhorse please try not to bait @Marek by saying things likely to upself her (like ‘whiney hypocrisy’). I think @adamo was just trying to point out that @windhorse has a right to speak here same as everyone else.
Perhaps taking a deep breath before commenting might make you both less inclined to reactivity and more able to respond without making it personal. I also recommend shouting your frustration with each other into to the vacant air around you, so that you can then write your comment without that frustration pouring into your words where it can do damage.
I got it. Thanks.
Dangerous ideas indeed :
If the bloggers here (in direct communication) can misunderstand one another so easily, no surprise they misunderstand lamas
I think we are starting to finally understand “the lamas” involved intimately well.
Please feel free to delete if this does not conform
The subject of this post “Dangerous Ideas that Support Abuse” is closely related in my experience to the effect of authority on obedience.
It’ has been demonstrated (for example in the Milgram’s experiments) that if they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of ethics, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.
This is what I could observe and experiment in several Buddhist communities (there are also similar testimonials in Christian communities etc).
Some students were harming either themselves (by accepting to be the victim of abusive behaviors), some were committing unethical acts by obedience (accumulating therefore bad karma), and some were even punishing those who refused to obey to unethical orders (accumulating therefore even more bad karma).
Some people, indeed, become even more zealous than others and aggressively protect the authority from criticisms. I think that it is related to cognitive dissonance. When Buddhist students are confronted with facts that contradict their personal beliefs (in the present case unethical behaviors or abuses committed by the authority) they take refuge in ideas that support abuses, or they actively deny the allegations of abuses and even attack the person who reveal them.
I think that Rigpa students (or others) who have been confronted to challenging events could find great help in studying social psychology, if they didn’t do it already. (It doesn’t contradict Dharma to have knowledge in other fields !).
https://www.verywellmind.com/the-milgram-obedience-experiment-2795243
Milgram’s experiments have been repeated in Poland recently.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/milgram-poland-experiment-recreated-authority-obedience-research-social-psychology-a7628981.html
Commenting on these sad subjects is asking me a lot of energy. I did it by sympathy for those who have been abused and feel hurt and lost, and also for those who enter Buddhism, so that they don’t make the same mistakes that I made (nobody warned me when I started Tibetan Buddhism, and there was no Internet).
I feel old and very tired. So if somebody answer to my comment, please don’t take it personally I will not answer. It’s a last comment, for this time at least.
The opening gambit on this blog says for those if you that want to keep Buddhism clean, implies that anyone else wants it dirty! These clean/dirty concept is quite alarming for a body of teachings worldwide. From what I’ve seen since this began is students worldwide are starting to be persecuted and ‘bad mouthed’ for following legitimate dharma paths, this is not acceptable and is a form of psychological abuse. The implication that students who continue to follow the
Tibetan path may have some kind of obedience complex is a perfect example ….. in its simplest form this is just offensive.
In no way does continuing to take a lama as a teacher mean that student agrees or colludes with any purported/alleged or proven abuse. No it doesn’t contradict the dharma to have knowledge in other fields, but a lack of interest in those fields means nothing either.
Can I blather for a bit?
I think it’s much safer to speak from direct experience and what is directly witnessed. Not to assume. Not to believe everything you read. It’s even more safe to just look at your own mind and your own motivation. Sometimes I feel like it’s more tabloid gossip and following the ‘intrigue’ of it all, and that is not helpful. I believe the 8 letter writers and the legal document backed that up. I thank their courage deeply for so many reasons. This has overturned so much for buddhists around the world.
To me the strange weather system or vortex (inversion) around Lerab Ling, where it would be rainy or foggy at Lerab Ling but clear in neighboring towns, was indicative of what Sogyal did to all of buddhism. His actions and the cover up of his inner circle of lamas and westerners really is like a dark cloud in a sunny world. But it will pass, as all storms do.
Some people felt to leave buddhism altogether, whether they were abused or not, whether they were in Rigpa or not, as this storm he created had such far reaching effects. But I want to say something about this. If a tradition is not helpful to a person, if a system doesn’t work for a person, if one never found a teacher who he/she had a close trusted connection with, then leave it and find something that DOES (in italics) suit. And don’t look back. If I left the Catholic Church after I heard or read that a few priests abused others and the church covered it up, if I felt the actual teachings of the church were not helping me, then I would leave entirely. I would not sling emotional sweeping generalizations to blacken the whole system on blogs and make those who are still in the church feel like they are in the wrong for continuing there, adding intrigue with wildly inaccurate statements and trying to dig up dirt. It is extremely offensive and off-putting to some people, including me. Think about what you post and if it will benefit others or not, and if it is an accurate statement or not.
I’m a practitioner and find great benefit from buddhism, and not just any buddhism, but Tibetan buddhism. I stay away from organizations now and I stay away from certain lamas that I don’t agree with or who have abused others or who I felt were complicit in abuse. That is my choice, and everyone has a right to listen to them, try to understand where these lamas are coming from, dialogue with them, and then make that decision for themselves. Everyone is on their own learning curve with their own karma and their own agenda.
I have known a few great lamas and find HHDL incredibly precious. I am not sure that some of these commenters have ever had the chance to be in his presence but it is truly extraordinary. I trust him. But more importantly I have investigated the teachings of the buddha to my very limited intellectual capacity and I trust the teachings. I did not go into buddhism for a lama, to follow a lama, or for a social life- I was drawn to the teachings themselves. I first took refuge to a statue as I didn’t have a lama… that came later.
HHDL is not the pope and this system has many flaws. Every system does. I don’t believe that these great lamas I’m inspired by are anything BUT human … they have gone within their hearts to such a deep level that they are in touch with all of humanity… as humans we have such great capacity and potential to be so much more, and yet we might only realize an ounce of our capacity if we are lucky. Most don’t even make the effort to want to see their own capacity. It takes effort and in essence we are all so lazy, especially me.. obviously so as I’m on this blog! The love and bodhicitta I’m talking about is not superhuman- it is our true nature- but most don’t hold it precious nor these teachings precious nor these living examples precious, so we miss each and every rare opportunity. The lamas who I feel have really tapped into their deeper potential have almost palpable love and kindness, have a lightness and incredible humor that is not contrived. They are fully present in their humanness.
It feels like we fall into traps so easily and just blather, look at me. But with that blathering that I do I also realize how precious life is, how short it is, and if I am only reading and blathering on a chair I am not productively and actively doing something, helping someone else who might need it in this world where there is so much suffering. I am limiting myself to my own potential as a human. These teachers are not saints; they are humans who strive to their deepest potential. I think everyone knows that they are not saints but sometimes in a cult like situation people forget and it becomes unhealthy. Turn away from organizations that prop up a single person, organizations that demand or ‘encourage’ money, turn away from lamas that make you feel uncomfortable and exploit you in any way. That is not the way. Start propping up yourselves, go to where the Buddha taught and remind yourselves of the teachings- read them. I constantly go back to the basics of the 4 noble truths- I find it indisputable. But the lamas in the west who are creating a bad name for dharma are a minority. There are many more qualified and skillful male and female teachers who do exist to help if your motivation is truly to reach your deepest potential. I believe every religion and philosophy is about that in essence.
Let people discover their paths and let them decide for themselves. This blog should be to give first hand accounts and solid statements that can be backed up. It should be to help practitioners move forward, and especially those who were affected in Rigpa. Let’s keep them in mind first and be mindful of the statements we make, myself included as I have said some things I deeply regret. Please accept my apologies. I really do care about the students were affected and my heart goes out to them. Thanks for letting me blather on this blog and I truly need to move away from this. May all reach their potential as human beings. Love and peace.
@concerned
Beautifully put and from your heart.
Your honesty and direct experience shines through your words.
_/|\_
@concerned
Thankyou for your contributions – this is a beautiful piece of ‘blathering’!
Wish you all the best in your life and spiritual journey 🙂
@concerned,
Why do my comments, or other people’s comments, bother you so much if you are comfortable and secure on your spiritual path? My feeling from your very long, long post is that some of the comments here have made you feel really insecure and unsure about your own path. If you really believe in Tibetan Buddhism, and you really believe that there are good lamas out there, and you have found teachers that you feel you can trust, then why do you need to protest so loudly?
@catlover
I for one, and no doubt many others, thoroughly appreciate what @concerned has shared. I read no “loud protest” in those beautiful words…. instead just honesty, common sense, and direct experience eloquently articulated. I’m sure that others would agree.
Catlover, your spectacles could do with a clean.
@Marge,
If ‘concerned’s’ comment had been directed at you, I think your own “spectacles” would look quite different.
@catlover
I made a decision last week to walk away from the last comment thread after witnessing mindless trolling and a lack of moderation, which clogged up beneficial dialogue between the practitioners of the buddhadharma.
I’m walking away again.
@Marge,
Yes, I keep wanting to walk away too. Why do I keep on coming back? 🙂
@concerned,
Why do you CARE so much about what I or anyone else thinks about your spiritual path? What difference does it make? That’s my point.
In conclusion to the exchanges I had above.
Now that it’s public, I can tell what the meeting I was mentioning in my previous post was about. It was about reconciliation in the Kagyu lineage, and the fact that the two Karmapa will meet in the future. They met in France on 11 October 2018. (You can see the announcement in Facebook at @Karmapa.)
However, the problem still stay the same for disciples : “Tibetan Lamas are almost all linked by political and business interests and therefore disciples are easily sacrificed in this game. “, and I was sacrificed as a close Kagyu disciple of the Karmapa. I suffered a lot of abuses and was wrongly accused during many years by some Lamas and their close disciples, because I didn’t want to take side and refused to be involved in wrong doings, and certainly because of jealousy. As many other disciples, I often asked the Karmapas to do something for reconciliation.
As the two Karmapas wishes, and as I wish too, I will do my best to strengthen and preserve the lineage… by my own solitary Dharma practice (no more big events, thrones and communities for me). Because there is no lineage without true practitioners.
With this important event, I don’t think I need to keep my pseudonym and to comment on blogs, Facebook groups or forums about abuses, I will be very busy with reconciliations matters and find a meaning to what happen now to me and to other people in my situation.
Many people feel happy with the new, I am satisfied, but I feel also deeply sad because even if there is reconciliation, there will be no recognition of the abuses, no reparation and no healing for those who have been broken.
The only thing which come to my mind now, is :” let the karma do its work, it can take lives ; and let your practice give results, this is the only consolation.”
Best regards to all Rigpa students and others.
Here is one link to the news :
https://kagyuoffice.org/joint-statement-of-his-holiness-ogyen-trinley-dorje-and-his-holiness-trinley-thaye-dorje/
@Julia Lovert,
I never could understand why the Karmapa thing had to be such a big controversy in the first place. My understanding was that a lama could reincarnate in more than one body and that there could be several incarnations of the same lama, (the body, speech, and mind emanation, etc.) Why couldn’t the two Karmapas work out a solution like that? (One could be the body emanation and the other one could be the speech emanation, or whatever.) It’s good that they met, but it seems to me that they could have solved this whole problem with the solution above and saved everyone so much trouble. Oh well.
Good luck to you on your journey. I have enjoyed our exchanges.
@Catlover,
Oh well…
I have enjoyed our exchanges too. Good luck to you on your journey with Tara 😉.
Just put cat in pigeons :
@All – are were all then bunch of ‘snowflake’ that judging the Vajrayana-Dzogchen master SR/SL with Hinayana point view; so really need to focus on our illusory selfs rather then judge anothers even master – maybe it not all just about SR/SL, not just shoot ‘bad messenger’ – but revealing our nature of mind’s?
“When Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche was once asked to give pointing-out instruction to a group of many thousand people, he simply laughed of the absurdity, because nondual mind needs to be authenticated by the teacher and he knew that he couldn’t check thousands of people. When someone is being told, without being checked, “you have now received the pointing-out introduction,” it’s at best wishful thinking and, at worst, a direct lie.”
http://levekunst.com/club-nondualite/
Dear Lamas – yes you! And other hypocrites in general…
If you aren’t prepared to live by and fight for the truth you profess with your mouths, if you let shit slide and stand aside whilst people take mortal blows, then don’t even say you love.
Love,
Moi
1 Cor 2;6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the (demonic) princes of this world, that come to nought
I feel very uncomfortable with the idea of reporting OT to the border watch, for 2 reasons: we all know OT is not dangerous in the sense that he would really kill someone. As for spreading unhealthy ideas: there are thousands of people doing that… Should we report Rigpa people to the border watch, as they spread these ideas too? Second, most important reason: I wouldn’t want to cooperate in any way with the Australian Border Watch. The way they treat immigrants is really frightening. I saw a documentary about this, how they keep illegal immigrants in a kind of concentration camps on an Island – really dehumanising. Maybe you are nog aware of this, but a lot of Europeans find the Australian immigration policy really awful.
@Sel En Sam, Australians find the Australian immigration policy really awful too. It is a shameful, horrible situation. But I don’t think it’s relevant.
The irony that just struck me is that if the Lamas, whether visiting or in residence, actually spoke out about the inhumanity of Australian off-shore refugee camps, they really would be thrown out of the country!