DJKR: THE ELEPHANT, THE MOUSE AND THE SCARY WORDS.

I received this guest post from someone who was at Dzongsar Khyentse’s second London talk. It’s well written and engaging, so I hope you enjoy it. At the end I’ve also posted a vlog that sums up my feelings at the end of DJKR’s 2018 European tour – Tahlia.


“Read my lips” as Ronald Reagan would have said, if he was a Vajrayana guru. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche says what he means and may even mean what he says, so don’t let his style of presentation distract you from his message.
Let me begin by saying that I find Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche a very engaging speaker. He explains ideas well, thinks carefully about his words, uses humour very effectively, enjoys being provocative and has a disarming combination of being both arrogantly opinionated and surprisingly frank about his own shortcomings. It’s easy to see why he is such a popular teacher.
I have now watched every minute of every one of the public teachings he gave on his recent tour of Rigpa in Europe – except for the carefully excised part where a man burst into the first London session screaming that Sogyal Rinpoche was a rapist and DJKR was covering up for him. The man was jumped and the story was disseminated that he was mentally ill (I can’t verify that).
I was able to attend the final session in person and it was good to look DJKR in the face when he spoke, not just at a screen. I’m not here to get into deep discussions of the Vajrayana – that’s for others, far better informed. I’m here to talk about what I saw of the man and some significant things I heard and did not hear.
First of all, there needs to be some kind of special oratory prize for a person who can go on a speaking tour of Rigpa, prompted by the scandal around the abuse that was committed by its leader, several of these talks taking place in the actual locations where physical, sexual and psychological abuse occurred, and talk for over TWELVE HOURS without ever using the “A” word. It really is not an easy thing. It’s got to be in your mind, tickling your tongue. You really have to check yourself to make sure it doesn’t slip out in an unguarded moment. So I’m going to stand up right now and give DJKR a round of applause for this remarkable achievement. Please join me.
In fairness to him, he did, just once, in his first talk, utter the word “victim”, as part of the phrase “alleged victims”. Somebody must have got on his case afterwards because in London he mentioned that he had been told that “alleged” was the wrong word to use. He blamed his poor English, although I was impressed by what a good mastery of the language he has. It was a very odd moment indeed. He apologised for his use of the word “alleged” but clearly could not bring himself to utter the word that had previously been linked to it, so many in the audience were left a bit bemused as to where this had come from or what the purpose of the comment was. It was as if putting the word “victim” out there without the protective cocoon of “alleged” was simply too intimidating for him to deal with.
Every place he talked you could see the same thing; when he was in full flow about Vajrayana he appeared confident and spoke eloquently. Every time he approached the nitty-gritty reality of what the consequences of Vajrayana being misused were, he would stumble, trail off into long pauses or simply change the subject. The maker of the pointed but amusing spoof video, which re-edits his Berlin talk, did put his finger on something, triggering a tirade of insults.
During his travels, DJKR did, apparently, reach out to some of the victims of abuse. Certainly, several of the eight letter writers were known to him personally and were people he trusted. One might have hoped he would have done this research in advance, but it is welcome that he did it at all. By the time he got to Paris, then London, there was a distinct change of tone. He repeated again and again and again “Do no harm”, which is rather astonishing. Although he is talking to an audience of people who have spent many, many years in Vajrayana Buddhist study and practice, he is having to remind them of the most basic principle of all. I mean, even someone with the most superficial knowledge of Buddhism, who never once meditated, would know about the principle of not doing harm. This was like an eminent English Literature Professor doing the keynote address at an international conference, finding it necessary to repeatedly remind his academic audience that to fully appreciate the work of Dickens, you first need to learn your ABC.
The fact DJKR felt the need to do this speaks volumes. He had been reading many people’s comments about their confusions and opinions, and hearing accounts of wrongdoing and abuse, and it had become clear to him that the most basic tenet of Buddhism was being completely ignored. What a terrible indictment of where group thinking in Rigpa has led them.
In his final talks he spoke far more plainly than at the start, perhaps more plainly than he has ever spoken on such matters. It is NEVER acceptable for a guru to harm somebody. YES, you MUST respect the laws of the land. You CAN’T deny that people have suffered. There HAS been pain – it is NOT a story or an illusion. [Sogyal] Rinpoche HAS TO address this.
All these things were good to hear. But it feels like they had to be shocked and shaken out of him. As he made plain in his first talk, he has his “agendas” and over the course of the tour he had realised that trying to wave some of these issues away with mystical ambiguity was simply reinforcing the narrative of Vajrayana as a cult. His mission was to save Vajrayana and if that meant being more explicit than he liked to be, then he would do it. As long as it didn’t involve mentioning rape, beatings, theft or using the word “abuse”, that is.
In many ways he was extremely honest, even if it didn’t necessarily show him in the best light. He admitted that when the letter came out, his first instinct as a tulku was to protect the teachings (rather than people). I think he very much sees himself in the role of Defender of the True Faith. In all the hours he spoke I never discerned a hint of compassion for the victims of Sogyal Rinpoche. With well-practiced phraseology, DJKR made plain that he cared for them only in the sense of their spiritual futures. But it didn’t occur to him that if someone like Sogyal Rinpoche has, as he put it, “burned the seed of the Bodhichitta” in these victims of abuse, they are not likely to be won back to Buddhism by a person who appears terrified of the words “victim” and “abuse”.
In fact it seemed profoundly ironic that whilst DJKR spent hours selling the audiences on how radical and fearless Vajrayana is and stressing that relative and absolute truth are of equal value, this fearlessness did not stretch to acknowledging the truth of the elephant in the room, let alone confronting it. The best that can be said is that, by the end of his speaking tour, he was occasionally gesturing in the general direction of the elephant, without actually looking at it directly – or calling it an elephant.
When asked “What do you think about the Rigpa inner circle covering up Sogyal Rinpoche’s misdeeds?” he dismissed it with “I already answered this question”. He hadn’t. When asked “What is meant by crazy wisdom?” he abruptly called for a break. On his return, when the question was eventually put again, he reluctantly gave a brief reply, saying that all Vajrayana was Crazy Wisdom, which he knew perfectly well was not what was being asked.
His discomfort in dealing with any of the nitty-gritty of the consequences of Sogyal Rinpoche’s misdeeds, and those of the people who covered up for him, was sometimes displaced with humour to take the sting out. When acknowledging that “there has been pain” he made the point that if it’s lunchtime and you’re hungry, you can try repeating “fulness is emptiness and emptiness is fulness” but you’ll still have a pain in your stomach. People laughed.
But there were also warnings hidden inside his jokes. More than once he said “I’m a Gemini: we can sell ice cubes to Eskimos.” Everybody laughed heartily, but he’s serious. He knows a lot of his followers will swallow whatever he says, if he presents it the right way. He’s probably Vajrayana’s top-ranking salesman right now (assuming there’s a leader board somewhere in Bhutan). He even refers freely to some of his followers – quite correctly – as sycophants, but they still follow him, like good Eskimos.
Likewise, he doesn’t hide where he’s coming from, ethically. When asked about bad behaviour by gurus he twice made his approach clear: he personally wouldn’t mistreat anyone – not because he’s a great guy but because he would be worried about what people would think of him and what they would say on social media, plus he wouldn’t want to lose students. Again, everyone laughed, but he didn’t repeat this without reason. We should listen. This is absolutely not about ethics for him – he never even used the word – it is about trying to protect reputation; his personal one and that of the Vajrayana.
He used stories and metaphors about magic and magicians many times, where the teacher is the magician who knows it’s a trick, but presents it convincingly. “I think you want magic, don’t you?” he asked his attentive London audience, who noisily expressed their enthusiasm. David Blaine may have a new rival.
After the final teaching, I was talking to a member of the new “Vision Board”. He raved about how great the teachings were, so I asked him – as he had been present at all of DJKR’s recent teachings, both public and to the sangha, and had doubtless had the benefit of private discussions too – what did he feel about everything he had heard? With the careful tones of a politician who has weighed up whether being wishy or being washy would be the best approach, he replied “I’d have to re-listen to it. I had a lot on my mind.” He had come to realise that the problems stemmed from the transition from Asia, he said. The one thing that felt meaningful was when he added, “I wish someone had told me this 30 years ago.”
But of course, there was not a flicker of acknowledgement of the meat of what had been said. DJKR himself talked about how, as a younger student, he had been forbidden from taking notes and had to simply remember what had been taught. Here was a senior leader who was claiming that, having heard the same messages repeated and repeated for a fortnight, they had not sunk in. If I was Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche I would be deeply disheartened by this. If nobody in leadership is really listening and nobody is ever going to start talking about the elephant in the room, the outcome for Rigpa, and possibly Vajrayana in general, is pretty obvious.
DJKR several times used the classic image of Ganesh as an illustration of Vajrayana concepts: the elephant is depicted standing upon a mouse, as his vehicle, and the mouse is magically unharmed. In the less magical world in which most of us live, we know that any mouse that chooses to disregard the fact that an elephant is about to stand on him, doesn’t have much of a future.


 DJKR’s talks may have repercussions for my vlogs for a while, I expect, but my main feeling at present is one of relief and gratitude. I also remembered an analogy for the spiritual path that Chogyan Trungpa gave that seems pertinent to remember in these circumstances.

 

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9 thoughts on “Rigpa Progress?”

  1. Brilliant article Moonfire! Thank you so much for articulating so clearly what many people, including myself must be feeling.
    Didn’t the Buddha say that “Words have the power to create or destroy.”
    I can only say that Sogyal needs to name, accept and apologise for his own behaviour before any apology will be truly genuine. This is certainly a start but it’s a “conditional” apology. And wasn’t he trying to teach us about “unconditional” love, compassion, joy and equanimity?
    I still find it sickening that none of the senior managers who were complicit by shrugging off their responsibilities towards vulnerable students are still in charge. A line from the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying comes to mind! In the chapter on Compassion there is a description of Western busy-style laziness and Eastern-style languid laziness…..
    “…. perhaps it was their karma to find a way to help!”
    While in Ireland at the weekend, I went to mass in a Catholic church with my father. Alongside all the other prayers, I heard prayers offered “for those who were injured within the church, let us pray for God’s mercy for all concerned”….
    Then in my hands in the mass booklet and among the general notices was a notice about the meeting times of the group that met to support survivors of clerical abuse….. and there was a poster about this meeting in the entrance hall outside.
    Alongside this poster was a big fat report and a review of safeguarding children and adults within that very parish!
    My God if the Catholic church can do that, then why can’t Rigpa? If only they had listened to their advisers back then in the early 1990s after that American court case.
    Such arrogance and folly to think that they were above the law back then and now.
    The Rigpa brand is forever tainted in my mind!

    Liked by you

  2. Agreed that until there is REAL acceptance of the problems, ranging from emotional abuse – public humiliation, threats and open favouritism, along with what amounts to fraud by any other name, misrepresentation of what the lama is doing (ie not meditating as claimed but other activities including watching inappropriate tv programmes) – all the sexual stuff – nothing will change, no excuses and apologies accepted and for the chief perpetrator – no change either. What of the advice from other lamas – those named, one at least, is highly suspect. 3-year retreat to reflect? Should happen but pretty sure it won’t.

    Like

  3. The March 2018 draft of the Code of Conduct was quite disappointing in a number of respects, but especially regarding the simple mechanics of filing a complaint.
    Note that an aggrieved individual cannot go directly to the (as yet unspecified) ethics board. One must first go through “steps” of seeking resolution through dialog and informal grievance via instructor, support person, or local/national team members. Even then, a formal complaint must go to a National/Retreat Director without any guarantee that the complaint will ever reach an ethics board member. It seems to me, the whole point of an ethics board is that complaints be moved to a venue outside the regular Rigpa structure.
    My comment to Rigpa was that “an aggrieved party should have the right to go directly to an ethics board as their first option, should they so choose. It is naive, impractical, and unfair to require an aggrieved, possibly traumatized party to go through multiple hoops of Rigpa position holders, likely of limited experience in addressing abuse issues and placed in the difficult position of judging friends. … Indeed, in some circumstances the oversight and advice of an ethics board member may be required to make the “steps” work at all.”
    Ethical codes for Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist groups are not new, so it is not clear why the Rigpa panel is having such difficulty in drafting a realistic Code. Is there more concern with protecting the organization than in supporting an aggrieved and/or troubled individual?

    Like

  4. Indeed. Other vajrayana groups manage the kind of clarity people expect in a code of conduct. No sex is allowed between student and teacher in this code.http://www.kagyu.com/introduction/ethics-policy
    Apparently that group learned from their own abuse debacle. Rigpa has yet to learn that they cannot continue as they have done in the past. Their draft code seems to be an attempt to write down the very structures they used to prevent complaints ever being taken seriously in the past. It’s very sad that on the one hand they say how much they’ve changed and then they cannot see just how much this draft code shows that they have no intention of truly changing at all.

    Like

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490 Replies to “DJKR: THE ELEPHANT, THE MOUSE AND THE SCARY WORDS.”

  1. For me, only one thing stands out. When is someone going to start talking about the elephant in the room?
    Until then, all the words the world will not effect any change of any worth and the central player in this goes unchallenged and without the impetus to truly examine his actions. Tibetan Buddhism itself continues on its magical way, but without clarity in this matter, what of it’s future in the West?

    1. The elephant in the room was kicked out.
      “…a man burst into the first London session screaming that Sogyal Rinpoche was a rapist and DJKR was covering up for him.”
      (At least *somebody* there was discussing it.)

  2. “It is NEVER acceptable for a guru to harm somebody. YES, you MUST respect the laws of the land. You CAN’T deny that people have suffered. There HAS been pain – it is NOT a story or an illusion. [Sogyal] Rinpoche HAS TO address this”.
    This is a positive outcome. We need a transcript of the London talks to be able to communicate those positions clearly.

  3. IMO, this is a really useful summary of his talks, boiling the things down to the relevant issues and highlighting fairly both the good and questionable aspects. Well done! Thank you.

  4. A skilful piece of writing. The author has identified DKR’s omissions and has done so with a fairly light touch.
    It does seem extraordinary that teachers of a spiritual path based on ‘do no harm’, struggle to identify and respond to harm when it’s perpetrated by one of their own. No wonder these guys avoid the topic of Burmese Buddhists massacring the Rohingyas. Let’s just pretend everything is glorious and blissful in this Buddhist fun-park we inhabit. What a joke – this is Samsara, let’s deal with it.

    1. @matilda7,
      The situation in Burma has nothing to do with Tibetan Buddhists though. While it reflects on Buddhism in general, it’s not a lama issue.

  5. Thank you so much for sharing your impressions, I couldn’t even get through one of the teachings. Unfortunately I stared with Paris which had pp reading questions in a cheerful almost giddy voice, it made me feel ill. pp is a ruthless asshole with intense disdain for the sangha…with him at the helm rigpa is not at all changed in any meaningful way.

  6. I think all the lamas that have supported Sogyal and his horrendous actions need to go and do a retreat, contemplate how to apply the teachings, really apply the meaning, in this particular situation. I am waiting for certain lamas to have the courage and clarity to live the teachings. They claim it’s a courageous path but where is their courage? They seem a bunch of cowards to me.

    1. Everyone who has had something to do with Rigpa , the ex Rigpa’s and the Rigpa’s and who are not willing to move to solve this problem we all are a bunch of cowards if you like to use this word so much basta.

  7. That said, I do appreciate that DKR was willing to answer questions publicly as this alone took courage. Still I would hope in the future he can tackle the issue of abuse to both men and women – physical, psychological, emotional, financial, sexual. He needs to spend time working with this issue on his own and not being coached by Rigpa. He needs to speak more to the abused. And speak honestly to the public without looking towards the front row but to the fringes. And look towards his own bodhisattva vow of stopping suffering in all of its forms. At present I didn’t feel the compassion. but in the future perhaps we will see it.

    1. @concerned,
      DKR doesn’t have any interest in spending time with abused victims, nor does he have any interest in learning more about the subject. His talks were purely a missionary mission to save Vajrayana (and mostly himself), from a bad reputation, (brought on by Sogyal, and by DKR’s tasteless Facebook comments in the wake of the scandal). It was basically a tour to “save face” and to defend Vajrayana, (as he sees it). When some of his earlier talks fell flat and stirred up even more controversy, he quickly adjusted his future speeches to make them sound better, (just like a politician would do), and save face. I don’t sense that he truly cares about human beings. He is correct when he talks about what a self centered man he really is. He seems like a very cold, calculating person to me. People may take offense at my comments, but I simply do not like or trust this man, and the more I see him, the less I like him, and the main reason I feel this way is because there is something lacking in warmth about him, and even in the way he says things. He did make some good points, and I am not saying that everything he says is wrong or incorrect, but the way he uses what he says to manipulate, for the sake of his own hidden agenda, is distasteful to me. I don’t get the feeling he qas giving these talks as a sincere way to help people, but more as a desperate attempt to just to help himself, and the reputation of Vajrayana, (his version of it).

  8. This is a very, very well thought out reflection, I appreciate the lack of bias.
    Very worth reading, thank you.

  9. This article expresses my own feeling about what WASN’T said by DKR during his very long missionary tour to promote himself as the new advisor to Rigpa, and “save face” for Vajrayana. The fact that he ignored the “elephant in the room” is why I still don’t trust him, and his talks have done nothing to restore my faith in Vajrayana, and most especially in him. In fact, quite the contrary. His talks have actually made me feel even MORE negative than before.

  10. Also, why did they throw out the man who protested, and why did they edit out his protest? To me, that says more about their true colors than all the pretty, apologetic speeches by DKR. Unless the protesting man was trying to be violent, there is no excuse to silence him. It would have made a much better impression if they had invited this man to ask DKR some questions and join the dialogue. It would have shown that they are actually interested in facing up to the situation and talking about it. Instead, they do what they always do when someone criticizes or protests. They call them “mentally unstable” or “insane” and silence them, while they go on praising the status quo and talking about how wonderful they are. (“They” meaning the elitist tulku club and their brand of Vajrayana, which is designed to suit them and their own lack of discipline and morality.)

    1. Certainly these mega-Dharma centres have a way to go in terms of how they engage with people who appear to have mental health issues. The urgency with which they hose down any aberrant behaviour is a bit odd, considering their bodhicitta vow, and given that so many students practice counselling professionally, or so we’re led to believe.

  11. Out of curiosity, what (other than family connections and reincarnation lineage) are Dzongsar’s qualifications as a lama? Does it amount to anything more than being famous and dressing a certain way?

    1. @beidawei – well there’s no Dharma Olympics! So what kind of ‘proof of qualifications’ did you have in mind? He has studied, mainly in Bhutan, i think. Perhaps his autobio will reveal a bit more.

  12. DKR was recognized as the reincarnation of a famous lama. That’s where he got his credentials.

        1. Here’s a bit more of what i know, not at all conclusive. While some Rinpoches studied in Sarnath, or at some other monastic colleges, AFAIK, he studied privately with the curricula supervised by Dilgo Khyentse – and possibly his father? His autobio mentions that he studied in Sikkim as a young boy.
          So he probably doesn’t have a fancy doctorate, if that’s what you’re wondering.
          When i knew him in Nepal in the mid-late eighties, he would have been in his late twenties and was giving initiations and teachings and setting up his centre in Australia (now sold).
          http://mugwortborn.wpengine.com/
          http://rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Dzongsar_Khyentse_Rinpoche
          The small book on the ‘life and teachings of Chogyur Lingpa’ by Orgyen Tobgyal, paints a vivid picture of the activities of the first Khyentse, Kongtrul and Chogyur Lingpa. It used to be free on the web, perhaps not now.

          1. I guess there’s no avoiding the conclusion that if Dzongsar is unqualified, then this means the entire structure of Tibetan Buddhism is rotten.

  13. DKR was recognized by H.H. Sakya Trizin as 3rd incarnation of Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo. He is considered to be the incarnation of Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö. So, I guess if Sakya Trizin recognized him, it is official, according to the tulku procedures.

      1. To Beidawei
        There is no proof that Sogyal was formally recognised. Nor is there any proof that he had been formally trained.
        Sogyal’s organisation, RIGPA, will tell you that he is.

      2. @beidawei,
        Dzongsar really didn’t say whether or not he thinks Sogyal is qualified or not. He just said that he didn’t think Sogyal prepared his students properly for Vajrayana. This does not indicate that he thinks Sogyal is unqualified as a lama. DKR remained noticeably silent on what he really thinks of Sogyal personally.

  14. I think there are 4-5 other Khyentses out there, for example Jigme Khyentse Rinpoche. All are emanations of JKW.
    I used to be impressed with DKR but after this whole truth with Rigpa came to light I can’t listen to him anymore. The tasteless sex contract and #me too posting making a mockery of the movement with no explanation were the final deal breakers. Really someone of his position with that title should know better.

  15. As to his background, we were living in Bhutan in the early 90’s working with an Aid organisation. DKR was living there during those 4 years and gave a small public talk – we were led to believe this was the first time this had happened in Bhutan which has its own secrecy. He had a house there then and I believe he studied with Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche whilst he was alive. I used to like his approach, breathing new life I thought – but even before this happened he seemed to be behaving differently and now I don’t feel the same about his words at all.

  16. The man who was physically thrown out of DK in London is a member of the Sikkimese royal family. He has known DK for decades. He feels strongly that Sogyal and DK are charlatans who have brought Tibetan Buddhism and culture into disrespect. He arrived at the Conway Hall late and initially sat quietly at the back. He did not have a ticket. Someone recognised him. A bunch of bouncers jumped on him. At that point he shouted and asked to be allowed to debate with DK. He was dragged outside where several people pinned him to the ground. The police were called. A bloke called Rowan Somerville talked to him in an obnoxious patronising manner. The cops were kind to him and gave him a lift to the underground. I agree with the comment here that strident action of this nature is long overdue and that he should have been allowed to question DK. He is intense but certainly not deranged. We are far too polite around the issues involved. I wouldn’t trust DK with a forged fiver.

      1. A member of the royal family is a VIP guest and should be treated with respect! Good grief! This is just appalling! I don’t know why I should be surprised by anything at this point, but I would have thought that DKR would be kissing up to royalty, rather than throwing them out. (No wonder they edited the tape! They didn’t want the world to see them throwing out dignitaries!)

    1. WOW! So, DKR threw out a member of the royal family?!?!? That is even WORSE than if it had been a random protestor because we are now talking about the relatives of actual world leaders here! That is such a breech of protocol, I don’t even know where to begin! This only goes to show that these lamas think they are above even royalty, and they can do whatever they like! I can’t even….I don’t know what to say! WOW! I am not enamored with royalty in general, but it is just incredible that they would treat a member of the royal family like that! Unbelievable!

    2. You got wrong info there! I was there. This guy crawled in through a door on his hands and knees, then when he got to the central aisle, he ran full force, screaming towards DJKR. As a natural reflex he was swiftly removed. I witnessed all of that. He never asked to debate DJKR.
      This guy has no interest in SR, but has acted like this to DJKR before.
      Shoddy info!

        1. I was there. You weren’t and you haven’t seen any footage telling you otherwise. Otherwise you’d have it up somewhere.
          He was not part of the audience. He sneaked in half ways through a session.
          There, that’s more reality on the situation than any one has told you

          1. William you appear to be adept at jumping to conclusions. You have it wrong on all counts except that I wasn’t there. This is true. The rest of your comments are way off beam..

        2. Yesterday I phoned with this man who was kicked out. He confirmed what Mary wrote.
          He had to sit in the back because he didn’t have an entry ticket – so he had to hide.
          His plan was to address an instance mentioned by a witness whose testimony is recorded on video of a woman who was naked and led by Sogyal with a collar around her neck, she had to play like being a dog and was badly insulted and humiliated by Sogyal, the witness says in her testimony of having seen that event herself.
          It is said this woman later committed suicide.
          So, this man from the royal family wanted indeed to challenge DKR and his way of dealing with abuse. He had a plan. But when they found out he had no ticket, they wanted to expell him. As this went on so quickly he had only 10 seconds to say something but it came across as aggressive or a bit strange maybe. But this was due to circumstances. DKR laughed about the whole. And this might be the reason why they edited it out. Because it wasn’t really funny.
          Yes of course DKR and SL usually ornament themselves with members of the royal family – also with this man. To kick him out is quite an interesting move.

          1. “He had to sit in the back because he didn’t have an entry ticket – so he had to hide.”
            – How? If you don’t have an entry ticket, then you don’t get in! One had to have a wristband to enter. So, everyone was within the hall with doors closed and the talk had been going on for an hour when he sneaked in and ran down the aisle at top speed screaming. If he don’t have a wristband he didn’t gain entry. He’s lying to you
            The stewards check people coming in. If they didn’t have a wristband, they didn’t get in. He was not sitting at the back, because there was no back! Even if he was, what, the stewards went over to him in the teaching and checked for a wristband? Would you wise up?
            He sneaked in and sprinted down the aisle. If that happens in any circumstance, you eject that person immediately.
            Imagine if I entered your teacher’s talk and ran down the aisle full force, screaming, would I not get kicked out? Of course i would. As a reflex most able bodied men would be on their feet doing what needed to be done.

        3. Mary.
          I was also there and it was scary. He charged at DJKR screaming. I thought he had a gun or bomb because I live in London and that isn’t out of the realm of possibility.
          If any principal is speaking at a public forum of any nature class or religion and is stormed by someone screaming obscenities they will be speedily removed. This is neither shocking nor uncommon. And did you perhaps even consider that they may have edited it to protect the offender from the public?
          I feel sorry for most of the people on this comment forum. you can only see bad in others and gossip and drive eachother with negativity based on nothing. But I feel sorry for you because you must be miserable also only able to see badness in yourself and your actions.
          I’ll pray for you.

          1. @Gaston Leflur,
            So the public is filtered and the video edited. Don’t you find it a little bit strange? This is happening in London UK, not Russia.
            I guess also that the questions have been pre-chosen and screened?

          2. Gaston, see my comment above about this person and that Mary told it right as far as I know and as far as I understand things.
            Rigpa and DKR know this person very well.
            The man finds how DKR deals with abuse to be wrong, therefore he wanted to address real things – the elephant in the room: SERIOUS HARMFUL ABUSE!
            Because he didn’t have a ticket and they wanted to kick him out he had to try to make his point in 10 seconds while they tried to take him out. To bring his message across in 10 seconds obviously didn’t work.
            So what is the thing he wanted to address at Rigpa London and what is it that was prevented to be addressed? It is this story told by Domenique Cowell:

            There was a woman who was naked in a hall, who was with him (SL). She had psychological problems, I think.
            She had a rope around her neck and he was dragging her, while laughing and saying “heehaw” “heehaw” “heehaw”, as if she was a donkey. It was such a crazy humiliation. And us, we couldn’t react.
            I was feminist, I was not a person who accepted situation passively. However, even if I was witnessing a situation of great violence, psychological and of humiliation of this woman, and at the same time of us, I, we had no more the ability to react normally.


            It is said that the woman who was humiliated later committed suicide.
            I can neither confirm nor deny that this is true.
            However, its all rather highly likely true than false considering the over all structure and abuse.
            BTW, I agree with those who see a lack of compassion on DKR’s side and how he addresses these matters. It should tell anybody who read the clean clear statements by HHDL and YMR that here a person sidetracks the real issues, rambles around, continues to establish ambiguities and certain ways of thinking that form the very core of the abuse within Rigpa. IMO, HHDL and YMR have shown true compassion and with a few words brought great clarity into the whole. Sadly, DKR mis-respesented what the DL said or intended to say and in his 10.000 word article he basically suggested these are modern lamas who don’t care about tradition. I mean, please check whose statements bring more clarity and whose bring more fussiness and ambiguity. The cults’s realm is fuzziness – said Stephen Hassan. I agree with him.

            1. We now have three people who were there, who witnessed what happened, who say his actions were scary, or felt sneaky or threatening. I am sure your account is true Tenpel, but of course the person who rushed the stage would have a very different point of view from people watching him.
              When a crime is committed the police gather as many witnesses as possible to try to re-construct what really happened by finding where the testimonies are the same. Three people said he rushed the stage yelling profanities, my guess is that’s what happened. It is not at all unusual for someone to be removed from a venue if they don’t have a ticket and run towards the stage. It’s very silly to imply that it would have been handled in any other way with a different speaker. If it had been a politician his removal might have been far more violent.
              It’s also not at all unusual for an incident like this to be edited out of a video that will be released publicly; perhaps as someone said to protect the identity of the person who rushed the stage.
              I also understand that MD, the woman who described the now famous donkey and rope incident said that she ‘heard’ that the woman later committed suicide. That simply doesn’t work for me, we can’t make accusations based on what we heard, then it’s just one story against the other. It is possible to dig out the truth, if it’s not worth her time to find out what happened to the victim then she shouldn’t mention that part of the story, it adds a sensationalist flare which is counterproductive.
              It would be great if everyone could stick to first hand accounts instead of he said she said, someone told me, I heard somewhere.
              I think that there is plenty to discuss about what djk said or neglected to say. Why try to sensationalize an unfortunate incident that sounds like it was handled very gently. A person without a ticket, who rushed the stage yelling profanities was spoken to outside and then given a ride to the tube. Personally I don’t find anything to be outraged about. Should djk have given him a chance to speak, especially if he knows him, I don’t know? What do other professional performers do in the same circumstances? djk is a performer playing his role, sometimes I wonder if he even knows what he really thinks, he certainly seems to go in circles and contradict himself a lot. I find the weight that people give to his every utterance more shocking than anything he says. He’s just an arrogant asshole trying to prop up and defend his culture.
              I thought that most people on this blog were students of Buddhism, isn’t there something in the teachings about training our minds, exposing our habitual thoughts and actions that keep us trapped in samsara? Isn’t analysis also part of the path?

              1. The person who was kicked out was also there. So, I guess he has also a voice 😉 And his perspective and intentions matter.
                Of course, there might be huge differences in how he was witnessed and what he experienced or intended to do and how it finally unfolded or came across.
                I discussed yesterday with him directly on phone. He told me his perspective and what he wanted to say. Parts of it I shared above for the sake of clarity. (It was ok for him that I did that.)
                He wrotejust by email – with permission to share

                There were 300 people in the audience, I was at the back of the hall and unless I was a terrorist with a bomb and I wanted to sacrifice my life I was clearly NOT a threat like some Rigpa people are saying, there was no danger, no weapon and no threats, so the excuse to kick me out was an overreaction on their part even if I did not have a ticket, clearly Sogyal’s constant association to my uncle at Cambridge and the fact my Grandfather took care of DKJR, Sogyal and the DL entrusted the whole of Tibet’s gold and wealth to to my grandfather who kept it safe on them and was a patron to the Tibetan lamas including Dudjum Rinpoche who recognized my uncle clearly shows I am likely to know more than the average rigpa attendee….

                HTH

                1. @ Tenpel
                  Yes of course, we must listen to what he has to say about the incident, but so far the way he experienced it was different than the way observers experienced it. Does one have to be right and the other wrong or can we live with some ambiguity and give space to the situation?
                  Do we always have to jump to condemnation? How will we ever find common ground with that way of thinking?

                  1. I agree. But let’s frankly say, people speculated about this person, labelling him even mentally ill (!) – a classic of cults- and it got worse until Mary spoke up. When Mary clarified details, her input was doubted and challenged, so I felt the need to support what she had to say and gave now additional information. Hopefully now the view is a bit broader and there are more details to reflect on the situation.

                    1. My point is that as long as we see this as taking sides then we’re sunk because the actual issue ends up taking a back seat.
                      I think it’s great to present another point of view, but in the interest of not adding to a polarizing shouting match (which MF is famous for) it would be great to clarify. ex. here’s the point of view of the man who is the topic of this discussion, as opposed to “Mary told it right as far as I know and as far as I understand things.” How can she be more right than actual witnesses who related what they observed and felt, she wasn’t even there. That’s the point Tenpel, you seem to have jumped on the one view is right, one view is wrong band wagon; if only life were that simple…
                      It’s not a competition, aren’t we all seeking the same thing, the truth?
                      I’ve heard Buddhism described as a science of the mind, can we apply some scientific vigor to our investigations?

                    2. When I referred to Mary‘s comment with she is right I had little time to go into details. It wasn’t about siding but approving what she reported because the person kicked out confirmed what she wrote to me and other added mainly speculations about the man – including calling him mentally sick. It was a direct address to William who doubted her strongly. So basically I wanted to give her words more weight. But I am neither battling nor interested in a battle about who is right and who is wrong. People have to find out themselves. Maybe the terminology „she is right“ is very strong in English language. I didn’t mean it very strong, basically I wanted to draw attention, hey listen to what she says. Its not made up.

                    3. PS I am only being very picky with words with you because I really respect all that you’ve done. You are a leader and can have a big influence.
                      Thank you for your tireless search for the truth!

                    4. Thank you for being picky! We need precision. I need to be precise. So I apologise for using a very strong phrase which rather seems to create polarisation.
                      His perspective does not deny or invalidate witnesses perspectives nor do witnesses perspectives necessarily deny or invalidate his or Mary‘s perspective. They could coexist and they could be the basis for a more wholistic view on the whole situation – except the accounts have distortions – are partially or totally untrue.
                      ****
                      I am in no way a leader. I am struggling myself with so many things. But I have gone through brainwashing and indoctrination and I got out of that. And I feel totally at peace with my past and stand with it. It finally helped me a lot and now, after having survived and learned a bit, I am grateful for it.
                      But I had to invest much time to understand myself, the dynamics, the cult leaders and my own role in Buddhist cults. It’s hard. It’s very hard and it’s very very painful. But if there is more clarity and understanding it’s an incredible relief and far more peace and acceptance.

                2. Who is this grandfather? Come with a real story, this is nothing only I was an insider tell your story HTH I rhink you have nothing tomtell.

                3. @ I’d still like to know how he got in, given he didn’t have a wristband (or hasn’t stated such).

                  1. He definitely got into the hall and sat in the back. He was approached by someone who whispered to him. Presumably this was the point where he was asked to leave. There is a video recording.
                    BTW, as far as i got to know, DKR has got more critical information and was better informed when he was in London than at the beginning of his tour. So, he is also in a process to learn. That he learns and listens is a good thing I think.

              2. Hi notsohopeful. Its good that you ask for caution. Thank you for your reminder!
                I got a confidential email with some more background information but can neither share nor report what it said.
                The testimony of the three people that this man rushed to the stage yelling profanities is what happened as far as I know. It is also not unreasonable to take a person down at that point. And indeed, others had their chance to ask, so why wouldn’t he? All in all the setup was rather open it seems.
                So lets put the puzzle together:
                – there is what the witnesses at Rigpa London say,
                – there is what the man himself and Mary reports (and what I added from his perspective + intentions), and
                – there is this incident reported of the woman and the rope being humiliated.
                – There is no proof that this woman committed suicide.
                – The woman was reported indeed to be mentally not stable (which doesn’t mean its right to humiliate her)
                It would be good to get to know if there are other witnesses who can verify / agree / disagree elaborate on the testimony Domenique Cowell gives in that video.

                1. Somebody member of the group Open Buddhism
                  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1459918927422287/
                  also witnessed the very sad incident of the woman humiliated by SL, years ago. She says that the woman is dead now, but she doesn’t say in which circumstances.
                  It is mentioned in the 14th replies to Michelle D. (4th comment) – Post of Rob Hogendoorn, 22 march 2018 – Silent Protest – youtube.
                  Note that the woman mistreated had psychological problems which constitute an aggravating factor, because as a vulnerable person she hadn’t the capacity to understand and defend herself appropriately.

                  1. This woman, according to the witnesses was mentally ill, this means that she didn’t had the capacity to fully understand what was happening, and to protect herself.
                    In this case, covering the mistreatment of this woman with Vajrayana arguments is a hypocrisy and a lie.
                    In any case, due to the law in France it constitutes an offense (with limitation period).
                    From a Buddhist point of view, it’s a breach of the Bodhisattva vows, for the perpetrator and for those who knew and could stop it; its also a breach of samayas. Of course, regrets repairs.
                    Simply from a human point of view it’s a great stupidity, and cruelty.
                    This event happened many years ago, therefore it was already a sign that something was really going wrong, and that nothing has been done to stop it, neither by westerners, neither by Tibetans Lamas.
                    The real issue is how could it happen ? How people could close their eyes? How is it possible that they still close their eyes today ?
                    The answer : because normally nobody is introduced to Vajrayana if she/he hasn’t develop enough compassion and bodhicitta. So this widespread so-called Vajrayana, we are speaking about, is an impossibility, just a fake practice. This is how Tibetan Buddhism degenerated in Tibet first and how it degenerate in western countries now, this concerns as much the Teachers than the disciples.
                    The problem is : lack of compassion, and lack of ethics (because ethics protects from lack of compassion), and without them there is no Buddhism, just empty talks.

                  2. Can only see Michelle’s account. Thought you meant someone else present at the time was corroborating it. AFAIK, Michelle is the only first hand witness & she doesn’t know for sure how /why the poor woman died, only heard about it.

                    1. NO, they were several first hand witnesses, Dominique Cowell spoke at the French TV, the link and the translation are above. This French woman Michelle D. confirms it, she was also first hand witness. (I don’t give her full name here by respect, you can find it on FB)
                      The way the woman died doesn’t change anything about the story itself, please don’t cover up the mistreatment with false arguments.
                      In any case, this was not the only case of mistreatment, I watched the testimony of Mimi and of her father, I read the book of Marion Dapsance (many testimonies), the letter of the 8 and others. All these people don’t lie.
                      But it’s not my negative karma ! I have enough of mine.
                      It’s the bad karma of those who did these things, it’s the one of those who cover them, the one of those who support those who did it, the one of those who rejoice. Your choice !
                      I just came on this blog to answer the question of Tenpel, I leave now.

                    2. Ok, well all of this has already been reported here, and possibly elsewhere. It’s hugely tragic but I can’t see that the Facebook account adds anything new to previous accounts of Sogyal’s abusive treatment of her. The point about her death actually IS important as nobody has first hand knowledge as to whether there was a link or not ( she may have died in a car accident etc).

                    3. Again NO Mathilda. It was not all reported here, Michelle D. was not here, and she is on Facebook. Please re-read carefully, Tenpel asked :
                      “It would be good to get to know if there are other witnesses who can verify / agree / disagree elaborate on the testimony Domenique Cowell gives in that video.”
                      Her death is certainly important, but I supposed that the same people who witnessed her mistreatment didn’t witnessed her death ! These thinks are rare, you know. How many death did you witnessed in your life ?
                      Even if she committed suicide it doesn’t mean anything because nobody can testify the motivation of a suicide, unless if a letter with explanation is left. The mistreatment is enough, no need to put a death in addition on the back of SL.
                      Good night.

                    4. I read somewhere that Michelle Desmoulin and Dominique Cowell are the same person… You could ask Michelle Desmoulin on fb to corroborate this…

                    5. To @someone present
                      Maybe that it’s the same person, on Internet you never know. Tenpel will see. However on Buddhism controversy blog, there is a message of Mary Finningan who also spoke to Dominique C., she said that an other person was in the room and confirmed.
                      Nevertheless, I think that this story is a digression. It’s just a sad story among many others. I gave the link to Tenpel on FB because he is the administrator of Buddhism controversy.
                      Let’s Rigpa answer, it was at the French TV, they had a right of reply. They didn’t do it. No need to elaborate more.
                      I don’t want to be too much involved in the problems of Rigpa. Myself I witnessed so many bad things in Tibetan Buddhism. If I were thinking of them I will never do my practice. It’s better to not spend to much time on these stories, life is short.

                    6. To clarify, as i was writing on my phone before, i didn’t mean to imply that i was in any position to know who was present when Sogyal persecuted this poor woman. I meant to write that she was the only one in that facebook thread that LD linked to that gave an account. For the record, it was originally described here by one of the regular commenters on this blog. Not sure whether that was a first hand account or not.
                      Agree it’s kindof water under the bridge now but i do hope that the French legal authorities have been provided with an account.

                  3. My understanding by reading this blog, is that somebody wanted to ask Dzongsar, during the London talk, about this event.
                    Did it really happen ? In which circumstances and why ?
                    The way the man did it aroused a lot of controversy…
                    Never mind, the question was/is still relevant, why Rigpa doesn’t simply answer to these simple questions ?

                    1. It’s all fun and games until the naked donkey lady kills herself, and the Sikkim man yells for answers.

                    2. “Did it really happen ? In which circumstances and why ? ” was the questions this man wanted to ask about the event of the women mistreated. Not my questions about him doing this or that. And by the way, this man is NOT mentally ill. Gossips ! Bad talks !
                      And about horrible mockeries on this lady, calling her “donkey lady” makes me sick.
                      I leave this blog with joy.

          3. @ Gaston
            Thank you for sharing your eyewitness account. I appreciate the testimony of people who were there, this is the only way for us to know the truth.

          4. Gaston Leflur
            Patronising BS. If that’s an attitude you learn at Rigpa who’s surprised it is going belly up?

            1. This is why you couldn’t make any headway for so many years mf, you still can’t see how useless calling names and shouting is. It’s only the simple statement of facts in the letter that finally broke through. People just shut you off, there she goes again…

              1. @mary @tenpel
                Hi all.
                I was also at the London teachings and I was sitting very close to where this man was intercepted. Without a doubt he seemed aggressive and it was very shocking and scary for everyone near by.
                Not only did he rush the stage screaming but I saw him spit in the face of a woman who was attempting to restrain him. I feel I should add that I saw no untoward force used by the people restraining him.
                It goes without saying that this man is going to have a different story. One which justifies his actions. Most violent offenders justify their aggressive and destructive actions to both themselves and others. Believing it without question because it affirms your personal narrative against DJKR doesn’t seem particularly objective.
                In any case, I felt I should also add to the eye witness account to clear up any doubt about this story and dispel the rather outrageous conspiracy theories which have arisen on this thread.

                1. To Clare L
                  You said, “Not only did he rush the stage screaming but I saw him spit in the face of a woman who was attempting to restrain him.”
                  That is rubbish. I knew people who saw it happen, and he did not spit in anybody’s face.
                  Clare, you also said, “In any case, I felt I should also add to the eye witness account to clear up any doubt about this story and dispel the rather outrageous conspiracy theories which have arisen on this thread.”
                  This blog has been running for months, and many of its commentators are first hand witnesses. Following His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s advice, they have shared what they know with others who have or could be harmed.
                  Sogyal’s sex abuse and RIGPA’s cover-up is extremely serious and it must be addressed. But Dzongsar, RIGPA’s advisor, continues to dismiss it.

                2. As Mary said, there is a video recording of it. She saw it as far as I know. So she knows what‘s on the video.
                  I got a detailed description of what’s on the video but I didn’t see it.
                  Nobody – also not the man from the royal family – is denying that he got very aggressive and shouted and was taken out. I have also the words he shouted.
                  However, there is NOTHING about spitting as far as I know.
                  And yes, he got into the hall without wristband and sat in the back until he was asked to leave and then the story quickly unfolded.
                  I don’t know what this has to do with conspiracy theories. Actual, we struggle all to put the pieces together. Mary added the man’s perspective and I supported that because I found it very unfair to call him mentally ill and to speculate about him. (We met different times.)
                  However, I also don’t want to be unfair to the witnesses at Rigpa London or to DKR or to SL.

              2. You’re right here Notsohopeful! MF’s approach was too easy to dismiss as driven by anger and aggression. The letter by the eight took a totally different tone which gave much greater credibility to their case, and opened the eyes of people like me to a perspective that i’d previously too easily denied.

            2. @mary
              Hi! I am in no way associated with Rigpa. I just went to these teachings quite by accident. A friend had an extra ticket.

  17. I don’t think it is appropriate to name him in a public forum but if you pm me on FB I will tell you.

    1. Did anyone get a video of it on their phone they can post? Or did Rigpa demand no taping of the program? This display of so forcefully suppressing this man and patronizing him rings of CULT. It’s all about contrived appearances to the public eye and controlling others, after all. From the carefully thought out stage and background, how DKR dressed, what he says and does not say, who’s allowed in the audience (apparently not that man), what and how questions are presented or not, etc. It’s all about control. Don’t criticize. Don’t speak out.
      Keep your head down and say thank you, nod, laugh, adore, sign a contract.
      This is not dharma.
      DKR is so fond of Trungpa, yet I suspect based on Trungpa’s style that Trungpa would have embraced the situation and engaged with this man who spoke out and would not allow him to be tackled down and thrown out. This is an example of how Rigpa dealt with everyone who disagreed with their ways.
      I would like to see a webcasted round table discussion about what is happening with HHDL, this man, Mingyur Rinpoche, Matthieu Ricard, DKR, Khandro Rinpoche, some of the students who experienced abuse, perhaps a western female teacher, and sound ordinary people outside of any organization to round it out. Then a true dialogue can happen.

      1. @concerned,
        In my opinion, there was nothing unusual about how DKR was dressed. He always wears those robes. They are lay lama robes, not monk robes, (although a lot of people get confused and they think that lay lamas wearing robes are monks).

      2. @concerned,
        Yeah, I would love to see a video of the man. I wonder if it is online somewhere.

        1. Catlover — it exists but is not online. It might be at some time in the future but right now the dust needs to settle and the person involved needs to reflect on what to do next.

      3. Concerned, you do know that Trungpa had guards who accompanied him and did use force?

  18. I think that people who understand French can also listen do this interview made the 28/02/2018, the same day that DJKR gave his talk at Lerab Ling. Otherwise I also translated some parts of the interview.
    It’s a complete deny of what is said on this blog about SL or Rigpa’s abuses, in the letter of the 8, and even by HH the Dalai Lama.
    Dominique Hilly, one of the administrator or Lerab Ling answered to Radio France Bleu :
    https://www.francebleu.fr/emissions/l-invite-de-7h50-france-bleu-herault/herault/l-invite-de-7h50-france-bleu-herault-260
    ————————-
    D Hilly said :
    “The Dalai Lama came here and said nothing. I don’t now who speaks in is entourage.”
    “All around the world not even one accusation has been made. People can say anything with complete impunity on social networks.”
    Question by The journalist : “Sexual harassment, physical violence, embezzlements, humiliation, do you said that all this is false, that it does not exist, that the Dalaï Lama made a mistake by saying that SL is disgraced ? Or do you recognize that these things may have happened ? Which does not mean that Buddhism should be rejected.”
    Answer by Dominique Hilly (Rigpa): “Of course you should not reject Buddhism ! All what is said are only allegations. We wait for proofs.”
    ————————–
    My question is, how the DJKR talks made the situation evolved effectively and positively, 17 days later ?
    Even if DJKR said some nice things about pure view* (that all tantric Buddhist practitioners are supposed to know !), even if he finally said :
    “It is never acceptable for a guru to harm somebody. Yes, you must respect the laws of the land. You can’t deny that people have suffered. There has been pain – it is not a story or an illusion. Rinpoche has to address this”,
    how can Rigpa, and more largely Tibetan Buddhists, fill the gap between the incredible deny of the wrong done and the final acknowledgement ?
    How this final “very general” acknowledgment by DJKR brings a relief to victims or survivors ? How does it make Buddhist Centers safest places ?
    When DJKR says “You can’t deny that people have suffered.”, does he means that they suffered because they are deluded (as he said before), or because they have been harmed by their Lama and by their Dharma friends ? Because if it is the first answer, it’s even more harmful to the survivors.
    As a survivor and as a neighbor of Lerab Ling, I don’t see or feel any benefit for the moment, and I will certainly not go again in a Buddhist center like Lerab Ling, or promote it. And I don’t think that French journalists have been fooled by these wishy-washy talks, they are used to politic talks. Some of them are also Buddhist, I’m almost sure.
    My message is not a criticize against DJKR, he is also doing good things for the Buddha Dharma, we can’t deny it. I don’t judge him, but he doesn’t help in the present situation.
    * Note : real pure view is not denying things, you don’t need to switch to a non-pure-view in order to criticize and act. Pure view is to stay as much as possible in the understanding of the ultimate truth (according to our level of experience or realization), in whatever you do, say or think (using skillful means or directly). Otherwise how the Rigpa’s people could explain the fact that they dragged a man outside during the London talk. Were they in pure view while listening to DJKR, and suddenly switched to non-pure-view to drag somebody outside ?

  19. We are very used to think and feel and assume that people think, feel, should act as and react to things as we do. It is true that we share a collective karma and live this illusion as if it were real, but our karmas are unique. We forget that fact more often that not and just project what we are in others. As a result we seldom put things into adequate perspective by impartialy (as much as we can) examining the context and circumstances that make other people´s actions also unique. On the contrary, we use our own self-righteous ideas and feelings to judge and criticize other´s actions based on our own actions and reactions, as if they were just like us. This can and should be dealt with through therapy in order that we could “grow-up” and be prepared to go on any spiritual journey. But that´s not what most of us do. We expect to mature through the spiritual path. And when things like the Sogyal scandal take place, we reveal our psychological hang-ups in the worst of ways: blindly and unconsciously.
    Let´s look at the context we missed, I´m sure there are many others, but this is just what my “impartiality” could examine and come up with. After the scandal NO other Lamas came out to deeply interfere or help. As usual there was silence: Dharma politics, tibetan ingrained cultural habits, coping out, fear of exposure, etc. But this was a major scandal that involved thousands of people of the largest western sangha in existence today. Something had to be done. Many people were suffering, many lost and confused, many naively blaming Dharma and distancing themselves from it, many wanting retaliation, and (we forget) many who were still true to their Guru Yoga. And there was only one Lama who did come out and was brave enough to speak out and really get involved neck deep. Since Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche has his own life story to back him up, we could say that he did this solely out of compassion, specially because he knew in what he was getting into. His 19 pages showed the shortcomings of both students and Guru and was a profound teaching as well, and he had to address wisely ALL groups mentioned above: the suffering, the lost, the quitters of Dharma, the ones demanding for retaliation and the remaining students with Guru Yoga.
    After his response got public, there were many personal, individual, partial and psychologically immature reactions, that blinded some people to really get the message. Their demand for “justice” and exposure made them do superficial evaluations such as citing ONE word of the Dalai Lama, “disgraced”, as the proof of his concern and correctness as opposed to Dzongsar Rinpoche´s complete and profound involvement; accusing DK Rinpoche of coping out, not being overtly against Sogyal Rinpoche´s doings, being a gender offender and many other blind self projections.
    Like Bernie so well stated in his letter: “One thing I realize is that I was under the delusion that I could bypass looking at my stuff. I thought if I would just keep doing what I was asked to, all my obscurations would magically go away and I would miraculously emerge as a fully functioning enlightened being….How could I possibly think liberation of confusion, not to even speak of self-liberation, could happen if I was not conscious of my emotional and cognitive processes and obscurations? From what I can see, many others in my community and possibly the wider Buddhist world might be falling into a similar hole and like me, not even be aware of it.”
    There are many more analysis that could be written here, but what is important is to really “grow up” and go look for help to deal with your own “stuff” because Vajrayana is NOT a therapy and was tailored for “grown-ups”.
    And if you want a really good elephant story PLEASE read this to the end:
    The Blind Men and the Elephant
    It was six men of Indostan
    To learning much inclined,
    Who went to see the Elephant (Though all of them were blind),
    That each by observation
    Might satisfy his mind.
    The First approached the Elephant,
    And happening to fall
    Against his broad and sturdy side,
    At once began to bawl:
    “God bless me! but the Elephant
    Is very like a wall!”
    The Second, feeling of the tusk
    Cried, “Ho! what have we here,
    So very round and smooth and sharp?
    To me “tis mighty clear
    This wonder of an Elephant
    Is very like a spear!”
    The Third approached the animal,
    And happening to take
    The squirming trunk within his hands,
    Thus boldly up he spake:
    “I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
    Is very like a snake!”
    The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
    And felt about the knee:
    “What most this wondrous beast is like
    Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
    ‘”Tis clear enough the Elephant
    Is very like a tree!”
    The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
    Said: “E’en the blindest man
    Can tell what this resembles most;
    Deny the fact who can,
    This marvel of an Elephant
    Is very like a fan!”
    The Sixth no sooner had begun
    About the beast to grope,
    Than, seizing on the swinging tail
    That fell within his scope.
    “I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
    Is very like a rope!”
    And so these men of Indostan
    Disputed loud and long,
    Each in his own opinion
    Exceeding stiff and strong,
    Though each was partly in the right,
    And all were in the wrong!
    Moral
    So oft in theologic wars,
    The disputants, I ween,
    Rail on in utter ignorance
    Of what each other mean,
    And prate about an Elephant
    Not one of them has seen!

  20. We are very used to think and feel and assume that people think, feel, should act as and react to things as we do. It is true that we share a collective karma and live this illusion as if it were real, but our karmas are unique. We forget that fact more often that not and just project what we are in others. As a result we seldom put things into adequate perspective by impartialy (as much as we can) examining the context and circumstances that make other people´s actions also unique. On the contrary, we use our own self-righteous ideas and feelings to judge and criticize other´s actions based on our own actions and reactions, as if they were just like us. This can and should be dealt with through therapy in order that we could “grow-up” and be prepared to go on any spiritual journey. But that´s not what most of us do. We expect to mature through the spiritual path. And when things like the Sogyal scandal take place, we reveal our psychological hang-ups in the worst of ways: blindly and unconsciously.
    Let´s look at the context we missed, I´m sure there are many others, but this is just what my “impartiality” could examine and come up with. After the scandal NO other Lamas came out to deeply interfere or help. As usual there was silence: Dharma politics, tibetan ingrained cultural habits, coping out, fear of exposure, etc. But this was a major scandal that involved thousands of people of the largest western sangha in existence today. Something had to be done. Many people were suffering, many lost and confused, many naively blaming Dharma and distancing themselves from it, many wanting retaliation, and (we forget) many who were still true to their Guru Yoga. And there was only one Lama who did come out and was brave enough to speak out and really get involved neck deep. Since Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche has his own life story to back him up, we could say that he did this solely out of compassion, specially because he knew in what he was getting into. His 19 pages showed the shortcomings of both students and Guru and was a profound teaching as well, and he had to address wisely ALL groups mentioned above: the suffering, the lost, the quitters of Dharma, the ones demanding for retaliation and the remaining students with Guru Yoga.
    After his response got public, there were many personal, individual, partial and psychologically immature reactions, that blinded some people to really get the message. Their demand for “justice” and exposure made them do superficial evaluations such as citing ONE word of the Dalai Lama, “disgraced”, as the proof of his concern and correctness as opposed to Dzongsar Rinpoche´s complete and profound involvement; accusing DK Rinpoche of coping out, not being overtly against Sogyal Rinpoche´s doings, being a gender offender and many other blind self projections.
    Like Bernie so well stated in his letter: “One thing I realize is that I was under the delusion that I could bypass looking at my stuff. I thought if I would just keep doing what I was asked to, all my obscurations would magically go away and I would miraculously emerge as a fully functioning enlightened being….How could I possibly think liberation of confusion, not to even speak of self-liberation, could happen if I was not conscious of my emotional and cognitive processes and obscurations? From what I can see, many others in my community and possibly the wider Buddhist world might be falling into a similar hole and like me, not even be aware of it.”
    There are many more analysis that could be written here, but what is important is to really “grow up” and go look for help to deal with your own “stuff” because Vajrayana is NOT a therapy and was tailored for “grown-ups”.
    And if you want to read a really good story about an elephant PLEASE read this to the end:
    The Blind Men and the Elephant
    It was six men of Indostan
    To learning much inclined,
    Who went to see the Elephant (Though all of them were blind),
    That each by observation
    Might satisfy his mind.
    The First approached the Elephant,
    And happening to fall
    Against his broad and sturdy side,
    At once began to bawl:
    “God bless me! but the Elephant
    Is very like a wall!”
    The Second, feeling of the tusk
    Cried, “Ho! what have we here,
    So very round and smooth and sharp?
    To me “tis mighty clear
    This wonder of an Elephant
    Is very like a spear!”
    The Third approached the animal,
    And happening to take
    The squirming trunk within his hands,
    Thus boldly up he spake:
    “I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
    Is very like a snake!”
    The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
    And felt about the knee:
    “What most this wondrous beast is like
    Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
    ‘”Tis clear enough the Elephant
    Is very like a tree!”
    The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
    Said: “E’en the blindest man
    Can tell what this resembles most;
    Deny the fact who can,
    This marvel of an Elephant
    Is very like a fan!”
    The Sixth no sooner had begun
    About the beast to grope,
    Than, seizing on the swinging tail
    That fell within his scope.
    “I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
    Is very like a rope!”
    And so these men of Indostan
    Disputed loud and long,
    Each in his own opinion
    Exceeding stiff and strong,
    Though each was partly in the right,
    And all were in the wrong!
    Moral
    So oft in theologic wars,
    The disputants, I ween,
    Rail on in utter ignorance
    Of what each other mean,
    And prate about an Elephant
    Not one of them has seen!

    1. You say : “On the contrary, we use our own self-righteous ideas and feelings to judge and criticize other´s actions based on our own actions and reactions, as if they were just like us. This can and should be dealt with through therapy in order that we could “grow-up” and be prepared to go on any spiritual journey.. ”
      I think that many people use ethics and laws. There is no need for a therapy in order to know ethics and laws.
      And if you want to read a really bad story : In a Buddhist center, I met a young woman who was, as a girl and a teenager, raped by her Buddhist step-father almost daily , “to crush her ego”, this is what this Tantric Buddhist man was telling her. This is what this man learned from his Tibetan Gurus. This young woman was in such distress, so much broken !
      I didn’t want to tell this story, because it’s too ugly (not a good story), but when I read you I can’t help.
      Are we self-righteous when we want to stop these kind of things ? Who really needs a therapy ?
      Was this young woman self-righteous ? Was she not enough “grown-up” to speak ? Was her demand of “justice” and exposure superficial ?
      Please go on, analyze, during this time I won’t stop to oppose this false Dharma.

      1. It’s still amazing that we have to have this kind of conversation…
        Call yourself a Buddhist lama, and you become immune to consequences of committing criminal actions it seems.
        At least, according to your followers, you are beyond judgement.

      2. Julia was this man a Rigpa student? Can you share what center was allowing this?
        I also won’t stop opposing a path that is not dharma, a path that creates suffering.
        If we are told not to criticize but quietly walk away when you learn of a woman being dragged around a room naked by a rope around her neck while the likes of Sogyal pulls her and brays and laughs, then she later commits suicide, then please tell me DKR, is this the varjayana that you want to protect? We should just quietly turn away from such actions? You say you are not a judge but what of your bodhicitta? Would you quietly walk away? That ‘path’ is not a path I want to or ever would walk. The missing element is the heart.
        I was not trained in such a response, ever, by my kindergarten teachers, by my parents, by my lama.

      3. @Julia,
        “And if you want to read a really bad story : In a Buddhist center, I met a young woman who was, as a girl and a teenager, raped by her Buddhist step-father almost daily , “to crush her ego”, this is what this Tantric Buddhist man was telling her. This is what this man learned from his Tibetan Gurus. This young woman was in such distress, so much broken !”
        Who was this man, and most importantly, who were his gurus?

        1. @concerned @Catlover It was 13 years ago. I can’t say more, for legal reasons.
          I told my story on this blog and also Buddhism controversy. I was a nun and spoke out against things I thought was not Dharma, that was harming others (not only sexually). Tibetan Lamas of my lineage harassed me and slandered me, during many years. I was also threatened by their disciples, and they didn’t hesitate to harm me.
          I learned something out of it : never speak out openly if you can’t protect yourself. However, even if you don’t speak out openly, you can contact social services, or warn people on Internet. Potential victims in particular will read it and avoid to fall prey.
          Women or even sometimes men have a tendency to confide to nuns. They often came to me.
          For example, a young woman call me a night, asking me to come to pick her up at the house of a Lama and drive her back home. In fact she was escaping. She told me that the Rinpoche invited her to come to speak about a Dharma project , but there were other women disciples there, and they invited her for sex with the Rinpoche. She was lost, and told me that she certainly broke samayas by refusing. I told her to watch herself in a mirror, that she was only young and really beautiful, nothing more, that she should not be foolish.

        2. @concerned @Catlover It was 13 years ago. I can’t say more, for legal reasons.
          I told my story on this blog and also Buddhism controversy. I was a nun and spoke out against things I thought was not Dharma, that was harming others (not only sexually). Tibetan Lamas of my lineage harassed me and slandered me, during many years. I was also threatened by their disciples, and they didn’t hesitate to harm me.
          I learned something out of it : never speak out openly if you can’t protect yourself. However, even if you don’t speak out openly, you can contact social services, or warn people on Internet. Potential victims in particular will read it and avoid to fall prey.
          Women or even sometimes men have a tendency to confide to nuns. They often came to me.
          For example, a young woman call me a night, asking me to come to pick her up at the house of a Lama and drive her back home. In fact she was escaping. She told me that the Rinpoche invited her to come to speak about a Dharma project , but there were other women disciples there, and they invited her for sex with the Rinpoche. She was lost, and told me that she certainly broke samayas by refusing. I told her to watch herself in a mirror, that she was only young and really beautiful, nothing more, that she should not be foolish.
          I don’t want to tarnish Buddhism. I love the Dharma, and I faith in the Buddha. There are very good Tibetan Lamas, and good communities. However, since many years, there is a worm in the apple. If Tibetan lamas, leaders of communities, Buddhist disciples don’t wakeup, it will be too late

          1. For the record, this young woman just started the nondros, she received public Empowerments as thousands of other women had. She had certainly not such samayas with this Rinpoche.

            1. Hi Julia.
              Can you please name this Lama so other women can be warned? This lecherous behaviour is harming the dharma also.
              It wouldn’t be slander or merit legal action against you to name him if it is true,
              Why should he be protected?
              How can we know which Lama to trust and which not to trust if their behaviour cannot be analysed?
              We must share information when we can…

              1. I understand your request, but according to the law in France, you can’t give names publicly even if what you say is true, you need to give legal proves, and it’s also better to have a lawyer.
                Also these women and men confide to me, it is to them to decide if they want to make it public. Some did it in France, then a Lama went to jail.
                Moreover, the situations I described can happen anywhere, in any community or lineage (I witnessed it in several Buddhist centers, in different lineages).
                In my opinion, westerners really need to study Buddhism and think by themselves. They should not give their trust blindly. They should behave with lamas, tulkus, rinpoche, before they know them well, in the same way than they behave with anybody, with respect but not giving them all power on their life. True devotion comes later.
                The problem is that for most of us we mixed our wonder for the Buddha’s Teachings, with blind devotion for the Lama, and even attachment to the Lama. I did it at the beginning, I regret it. I wish that I will never do it again in my next lives.

              2. I understand your request, but according to the law in France, you can’t give names publicly even if what you say is true, you need to give legal proves, and it’s also better to have a lawyer.
                Also these women and men confide to me, it is to them to decide if they want to make it public. Some did it in France, then a Lama went to jail.
                Moreover, the situations I described can happen anywhere, in any community or lineage (I witnessed it in several Buddhist centers, in different lineages).
                In my opinion, westerners really need to study Buddhism and think by themselves. They should not give their trust blindly. They should behave with lamas, tulkus, rinpoche, before they know them well, in the same way than they behave with anybody, with respect but not giving them all power on their life. True devotion comes later.
                The problem is that for many of us we mixed our wonder for the Buddha’s Teachings, with blind devotion for the Lama, and even attachment to the Lama. I did it at the beginning, I regret it. I wish that I will never do it again in my next lives.

                1. Thanks Julia – quite difficult in France then!
                  I hear and agree with your views on the dharma, Lamas, trust and mixing things up – does seem many of these western sanghas become ‘cults of personality’.

    2. dreamhouse786, you said: “Let´s look at the context we missed, I´m sure there are many others, but this is just what my “impartiality” could examine and come up with. After the scandal NO other Lamas came out to deeply interfere or help” and “And there was only one Lama who did come out and was brave enough to speak out and really get involved neck deep”.
      Now please answer the following question honestly: why do you think Rigpa has only invited DJKR and his 2 “lama-friends” to give teachings on the subject and not HHDL or Mingyur Rinpoche? They don’t seem so afraid to provide advices and teachings.

    3. To dreamhouse786
      Dzongsar’s talks were a part of RIGPA’s damage limitation exercise, and it is for these reasons why I now will no longer be involved with Sogyal, Dzongsar, and RIGPA:
      1. Sogyal committed sex abuse.
      2. Sogyal’s organisation, RIGPA, covered-up his sex abuse.
      3. RIGPA chose Dzongsar, Sogyal’s close ally, to be their advisor.
      4. As he agreed with RIGPA, Dzongsar spoke ambiguously, and he evaded direct questions about Sogyal’s sex abuse.
      5. One does not have be a member of RIGPA to be a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism. Pure teachers, such as His Holiness the Dalai Lama, can be found elsewhere.
      In short, covering-up, or dismissing sex abuse, like RIGPA and Dzongsar have done, is grossly irresponsible, and it is destroying the reputation of Tibetan Buddhism.
      Please bear in mind the immense amount of suffering that Sogyal’s sex abuse victims went through, and ask yourself why you would want to follow any teacher or organisation who is covering-up or dismissing that.

    4. @Dreamhouse, one point. For some of us, speaking out, hearing our clear, discerning, truthful voices after years of blind, silent devotion, refusing to be shut down and ignored, refusing to be put in a house without doors, is a huge step of spiritual and psychological growth. It may look immature to you and maybe it’s a little clumsy because it’s such a big new step for many, but these voices are ALL about growing up and applying the Dharma in meaningful ways.

    5. @Dreamhouse, also, just for the record, HHDL said more than just “disgraced.” He said it’s time to break with the feudal past and start a revolution, did you listen to that one?

      1. Yes I believe HHDL spoke about the matter 3 separate times since it came to light- and he spoke clearly, succinctly, forcefully to the point. It was not at all superficial, rambling, wishy washy, confusing, and lengthy. Nor was it followed up by offensive FB postings.
        No misinformation or mistranslation. The students need to expose the lama and speak out.
        Matthieu Ricard, HHDL, and then MR made clear statements that I found to the point and very helpful.
        It is the Rigpa’s students job to clean this up since Sogyal is not going to come out of hiding and take accountability. But it is the greater buddhist community’s job to support those who were abused and misled and bring to light other lamas who are misleading and causing harm. It is a widespread problem and everyone needs to wake up and reexamine what they believe and check who they are bowing down to.

  21. @dreamhouse786,
    It’s time for the Tibetan Buddhist establishment, (both in the East and in the West), to “grow up” and face the elephant that’s already in the room. Instead of hiding behind excuses, it’s time for them to finally admit that corruption is out of control and lamas are misbehaving and bringing about a VERY bad imression about Tibetan Buddhism in the West. The only Tibetan lamas brave enough to say anything at all were HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche. Other than those two lamas, and a few Western teachers and professors, the Tibetan establishment has been very, very quiet about this whole issue, and they have not spoken out, other than to make excuses and go on a damage control mission, (which is what DKR has been doing). maybe some of the ones who didn’t say anything are just hoping that if they stay silent long enough, it will somehow all go away and it will be back to business as usual.

  22. I was at the London teaching. I didn’t see how the guy got in, DJKR was teaching and then all of a sudden there was a young guy with an American accent running towards him screaming “You’re a fucking liar ” and then about SR being a rapist with the suicide of his victim round his neck… People jumped up to stop him as he came close to DJKR, and as several of them forced him out of the venue he shouted that he was the grandson of the king of Sikkim (as far as I’m aware the king of Sikkim has no real role there anymore and is seen by many Sikkimese i know as being a very eccentric character… I met him myself once and he was incredibly friendly and helpful however!)… Police were called and the young man was kept out of the building… DJKR kept talking after this incident had occurred almost as if nothing significant had happened, and without seeming too flustered… He didn’t address what had happened… It was incredibly shocking and left me and i’m sure many others there very shaken! It made me well up with tears actually; both for the young man himself, and for DJKR who i personally found to be very sincere, caring and courageous throughout. I think his talk was a very finely balanced effort to come from the heart whilst remaining as impartial as possible…
    DJKR shortly after the incident called a pee break which he did in each of his different teachings around Europe…
    After the break there was an announcement that the guy was outside the building talking to the police…
    I heard from someone later that he has protested at DJKR events before…

    1. This man wanted to speak about this event in Lerab Ling, I suppose :
      Here is the link to the interview of the woman (former disciple and worker at Lerab Ling) who was one of the witnesses and who spoke. Interview by France 3, 24/01/2018. 1:47

      “There was a woman who was naked in a hall, who was with him (SL). She had psychological problems, I think.
      She had a rope around her neck and he was dragging her, while laughing and saying “heehaw” “heehaw” “heehaw”, as if she was a donkey. It was such a crazy humiliation. And us, we couldn’t react.
      I was feminist, I was not a person who accepted situation passively. However, even if I was witnessing a situation of great violence, psychological and of humiliation of this woman, and at the same time of us, I, we had no more the ability to react normally.”
      I read that the humiliated woman committed suicide later, but didn’t found the source. I deeply feel sorry for her. I feel sorry that nobody took care of her and that nobody protected her. This is also a tragedy for the people who witnessed, it must be hard for them to remember this situation.
      It was certainly incredibly shocking !

    2. Just to make clear – when i mentioned the king of Sikkim in the previous comment, i was referring to the current heir to the throne, who i thought the man at the London event was referring to as his grandfather, but who i now realise is his uncle. I now realise that Tenzing Tenzing (as he is on facebook) is the grandson of the last real king of Sikkim Thondup Namgyal…
      Sorry if my comments about him lead to any confusion!

  23. Thank you @someone present for relaying what you saw there. I feel touched that you welled up with tears. That show you are not hardened like so many people in the front rows.
    But how odd that DJKR didn’t address it, dismissed it and carried on like nothing happened.
    The thing is, I don’t think DJKR should be impartial on this matter. We are taught as children and in basic universal ethics, that if you know that people/animals/beings are being hurt and can stop it, then you should. Even if your friend is causing the harm you need to stop your friend. This is basic ethics. In the dharma, once you take the bodhisattva vow, then it is even more important to abide by this. You don’t allow the smallest fly to be killed or to suffer. So that is a wonder to me how DJKR is playing politically neutral when he himself has known for decades. I was hoping he’d be less of a player.

  24. @Concerned, i did find it strange that the incident wasn’t addressed, as it seemed to me that the atmosphere in the room was completely transformed by the event! The look in DJKR’s eyes as the man ran towards him was very interesting! – it wasn’t of shock or fear, it was almost one of surprised admiration and illumination… It was one of the most fascinating aspects of the whole experience for me! My projection is that he didn’t want to add drama to the situation by discussing it, and that he already knew the young man in question.
    I knew many of the faces in the front rows too, and i can tell you that they looked very shocked and shaken!
    I was left wishing that the situation had been addressed by DJKR, but i was told later by someone who knew the man in question that he does struggle with his own issues relating personally to DJKR, and i guess it was maybe perceived as being best left alone…
    The Rigpa representative who mentioned the event after the pee break did seem genuinely concerned about the issue, and discussed it with sensitivity by saying that the guy was very upset but that he was outside talking to the police and was now much calmer (i can’t remember the exact words used)
    The whole thing gave a very strong edge of incredibly poignant significance to the teachings and i certainly didn’t get the impression that DJKR didn’t care – in fact he seemed to me to be incredibly heartfelt and careful about every word he used. He didn’t come across as in any way callous or immune, infact he seemed nakedly and genuinely open and tender for much of the time that he taught.
    If i remember correctly the last main point that he made was that people were definitely suffering as a result of all of this, and that we must find a way therefore to deal with it properly and honestly (sorry if that’s too much my own interpretation).
    I know one of the people who has experienced personal harm in their relationship with SR, and i know that DJKR has reached out to them personally in a Very caring and supportive way! It is my impression that he really does care about all of this…

    1. Thank you Someone Present. It certainly seems that DKR is getting more than he bargained for and maybe being forced to face the enormity of the problem, which is really much bigger than SL. I don’t think he has the leadership skills or courage to do what’s needed. Should he be completely maligned for that? I don’t know. His FB posts are a real problem for me.

      1. @Joanne, It seems what we’re dealing with is the contrast between the public and the private persona. I’ve no doubt that as a genuine bodhisattva, DKR would resonate compassion when engaging with individual victims. While his public utterances have been carefully calibrated not to offend the Rigpa management & in particular, SR. So while he navigates this tension, we are quite rightly, in varying degrees, critical that his talks haven’t gone far enough.
        Yes this reflects a kind of weakness of character, while kinder folk may interpret the lack of a public, fulsome acknowledgement as the pressure of social etiquette and the weight of Rigpa management bearing down upon him.
        Concerning the social media outbursts, i’m just waiting for someone here to write “let it go”. But our public behaviour is a reflection of our state of mind and we are all judged by how we conduct ourselves around others. DKR could reflect on his fb posts, apologise and express genuine remorse. Then we can “let it go”.
        Until then, we are right to be doubtful of his understanding of the abuse, objectification and exploitation that women globally are currently up in arms about, having suffered in silence over many generations, across most cultures.
        Until then, i remain very concerned about DKR’s suitability to preside over a Buddhist school.

    2. @someone present “I did find it strange that the incident wasn’t addressed.” I totally agree. I remember once, a Shugden worshipper shouted “Stop lying” to HH Dalai Lama during a teaching. He also was escorted out, shouting. However, HH took some time afterwards to address the Shugden trouble and why he made the choices he made and his bewilderment over why people are calling him a lier. I really believe that if a teacher is to demonstrate the Dharma then he/she needs to be fearless about addressing reality, however shocking it might appear.

  25. Julia, you wrote: “I think that many people use ethics and laws. There is no need for a therapy in order to know ethics and laws.” Of course you should appeal to ethics and law everytime you see them broken. I am not saying anything that contradicts that. Actually I did not even get into that. What I AM saying is that this is a spiritual path and as such and in order for it to be tread in a useful and effective way, we MUST know that we are not to confuse the path with the traveller on the path and thus not get these things mixed up. To be in the world BUT not of it! The vision high as te sky, the action fine as flour!
    French Observer, you wrote: “why do you think Rigpa has only invited DJKR and his 2 “lama-friends” to give teachings on the subject and not HHDL or Mingyur Rinpoche? They don’t seem so afraid to provide advices and teachings.” Fisrtly Rigpa did not invite him. They simply made use of the occasion; he was already there neck deep. Secondly: Both HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche are great Lamas but were very superficially involved AND only came out with their comments AFTER DKR´s. And I noted you “” to mention the lama-friends…..does that not illustrate what my text was showing?
    Marge, you wrote: “RIGPA chose Dzongsar, Sogyal’s close ally, to be their advisor.” Maybe that was just a very bad choice of words, or maybe you should read my comments again and see how well your commentary fits my reflections.
    Joanne Clark, you wrote: “but these voices are ALL about growing up and applying the Dharma in meaningful ways.” Applying the Dharma in meaninful ways would be to take abuse and dreadful hardships as the path and in parellel do whatever seemed fit to be done!
    Catlover, you wrote:”It’s time for the Tibetan Buddhist establishment, (both in the East and in the West), to “grow up” and face the elephant that’s already in the room” I would edit the “grow up” off your text, but agree 100% with that. As for: “…other than to make excuses and go on a damage control mission, (which is what DKR has been doing)…” Maybe you did NOT read his 19 pages well enough nor listened to his 4 talks attentively and open enough as to grasp the fantastic teachings we were given. Maybe you wished he did exactly what YOU would do and think is right; as, again, my text illustrates. And in so doing, you missed out on the amazing teachings and opportunities to think for ourselves that DKR gave. Mingyur Rinpoche did exactly the same in a much smaller scale: He only reminded us of what the Dharma says about the student/teacher relationship and it was wonderful! DKR was braver, much much braver! He did that and much more and brilliantly even scolded tibetan lamas in many ways never seen before. And we shall see them slowly but surely wake up, thanks to DKR´s courage, compassion and deep intention to make a clear distiction between this scandal and true Dharma and Vajrayana!
    As for the great majority of the other comments here, they come to illustrate so precisely what my text says.
    PS: By the way dreamhouse786 is my alias in wordpress ..my name is Clarita Maia. I do not like aliases in these matters.

  26. Julia, you wrote: “I think that many people use ethics and laws. There is no need for a therapy in order to know ethics and laws.” Of course you should appeal to ethics and law everytime you see them broken. I am not saying anything that contradicts that. Actually I did not even get into that. What I AM saying is that this is a spiritual path and as such and in order for it to be tread in a useful and effective way, we MUST know that we are not to confuse the path with the traveller on the path and thus not get these things mixed up. To be in the world BUT not of it! The vision high as te sky, the action fine as flour!
    French Observer, you wrote: “why do you think Rigpa has only invited DJKR and his 2 “lama-friends” to give teachings on the subject and not HHDL or Mingyur Rinpoche? They don’t seem so afraid to provide advices and teachings.” Fisrtly Rigpa did not invite him. They simply made use of the occasion; he was already there neck deep. Secondly: Both HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche are great Lamas but were very superficially involved AND only came out with their comments AFTER DKR´s. And I noted you “” to mention the lama-friends…..does that not illustrate what my text was showing?
    Marge, you wrote: “RIGPA chose Dzongsar, Sogyal’s close ally, to be their advisor.” Maybe that was just a very bad choice of words, or maybe you should read my comments again and see how well your commentary fits my reflections.
    Joanne Clark, you wrote: “but these voices are ALL about growing up and applying the Dharma in meaningful ways.” Applying the Dharma in meaninful ways would be to take abuse and dreadful hardships as the path and in parellel do whatever seemed fit to be done!
    Catlover, you wrote:”It’s time for the Tibetan Buddhist establishment, (both in the East and in the West), to “grow up” and face the elephant that’s already in the room” I would edit the “grow up” off your text, but agree 100% with that. As for: “…other than to make excuses and go on a damage control mission, (which is what DKR has been doing)…” Maybe you did NOT read his 19 pages well enough nor listened to his 4 talks attentively and open enough as to grasp the fantastic teachings we were given. Maybe you wished he did exactly what YOU would do and think is right; as, again, my text illustrates. And in so doing, you missed out on the amazing teachings and opportunities to think for ourselves that DKR gave. Mingyur Rinpoche did exactly the same in a much smaller scale: He only reminded us of what the Dharma says about the student/teacher relationship and it was wonderful! DKR was braver, much much braver! He did that and much more and brilliantly even scolded tibetan lamas in many ways never seen before. And we shall see them slowly but surely wake up, thanks to DKR´s courage, compassion and deep intention to make a clear distiction between this scandal and true Dharma and Vajrayana!
    As for the great majority of comments here, they just come to illustrate precisely what my text talks about!
    PS: By the way my name is Clarita Maia.
    IN TIME: I just read your comment Someone Present….how beautiful it is to read this: “My projection is that …..” no affirmation, no deduction, just your input….so good!

    1. To dreamhouse786
      Given the amount of agreements that have been made behind closed doors between RIGPA and Dzongsar, it would be immensely naive to ditch your common sense now. There was a reason why Sogyal wanted Dzongsar to be the advisor to RIGPA’s governing board, which consists of a small group of Sogyal’s closest supporters.
      As you are attempting to make all of Dzongsar’s actions sound positive, please could you explain the things which he did that actually put people off Buddhism.
      For example, what is so positive about the “Sex Contract” that Dzongsar posted on his Facebook page, when he attempted to make light of the situation surrounding Sogyal and RIGPA?
      If you didn’t see it, it was the most inappropriate stunt in the form of a legal “Sex Contract” that listed numerous things that any rinpoche and student could sign mutual consent for, such as: the student would allow the rinpoche to give them anal sex, vaginal sex, and battery, and the student would also accept being urinated and defacated upon, and if the student got pregnant she would have to have an abortion.
      This “Sex Contract” deeply upset many people, particularly as Dzongsar posted it on his public Facebook page where many young Buddhists saw it, some of whom were children. As a result of the uproar it caused, the post was taken down. However, despite receiving many complaints, Dzongsar failed to issue an apology to the many people who were not only insulted during such a sensitive time, but who were also deeply and justifiably concerned about the damage that it did to the image of Buddhism.
      I for one will not be naive and be sucked into Sogyal’s, Dzongsar’s, and RIGPA’s agenda. I will continue to use my reasoning mind, and I will take His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s advice, and speak out.

    2. @dreamhouse786, you said: “Secondly: Both HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche are great Lamas but were very superficially involved AND only came out with their comments AFTER DKR´s”.
      In fact the letter from the eight former students (dated 7/19/2017) had been addressed at the same time to HHDL, Mingyur Rinpoche, DJKR and others.
      To my knowledge, DJKR’s facebook post came out only on 14 August 2017. The Dalai Lama comments on Sogyal Rinpoche is dated 1st August 2017 on youtube.
      Sogyal Rinpoche also promised, in his response to the letter from the eight, that he would consult with Mingyur Rinpoche (and other lamas) on how best to respond to the current situation.
      On August 9, an article by Mingyur Rinpoche was published on Lion’s Roar (apparently it has been edited by the site on October 26, 2017).
      @dreamhouse786, you said you were impartial so now you have to prove what you said with facts or recognize that you are misinformed.
      For information and reference:
      https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2017/08/11/hh-dalai-lama-and-others-speak-out-about-sogyal-rinpoche-his-behaviour/

      1. Now, I would like to understand how it is possible that DJKR didn’t read Mingyur Rinpoche’s article before March 2018? This doesn’t look to me possible if he’s really deeply involved with the problems of Rigpa. Or there is some serious problems of disinformation going on.
        Sogyal Rinpoche wanted to consult with Mingyur Rinpoche and he got an answer. Why Rigpa’s board didn’t take into consideration his answer? Why didn’t they inform DJKR of this answer when he is supposed to be the head of the vision’s board?
        Seems like some serious manipulation and misinformation are going on between Rigpa and DJKR. And when DJKR said that there may be some problem of translation (the sources from HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche being directly in english): or he is misinformed, or he is trying to manipulate his own public. Maybe DJKR just realized on the London scene that he has been manipulated and misinformed.
        ANYWAY WE DON’T ACCEPT TO BE MANIPULATED AND MISINFORMED THIS WAY. NOW THAT DJKR HAS LEARNT THAT THE ORIGINAL DECLARATIONS WERE IN ENGLISH, HE CAN’T DISCARD HHDL AND MINGYUR RINPOCHE POSITIONS WITH SOME FALSE CONSIDERATION LIKE THERE MUST BE A PROBLEM OF TRANSLATION. NEITHER CAN HIS FOLLOWERS AND THE RIGPA MEMBERS.

      2. Good points French Observer– and I would also add to @Dreamhouse that SL has declared HHDL to be one of his “principal teachers.” So to say that he is “very superficially involved” seems incorrect and very political. For too long, Rigpa has used the connection between HHDL and SL only as it has suited them. Now, when the connection has some challenges, they are disregarding that it exists.

    3. @dreamhouse786, and all
      There is also the #metoo mockery which is not funny at all. On a photography he tweeted on 01/10/2018 to the public, DJKR is posing in front of a advertising poster of a beautiful white woman wearing underwear only.
      We can understand the purpose of his joke if we read the article bellow. Otherwise, what is the purpose ?
      The Distortions We Bring To The Study of Buddhism, by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, April 2, 2014 – Lion Roar – Magazine.
      “Another example of the hypocrisy involved with this kind of attitude is the Western “benevolent” wish to “liberate” Eastern women from the clutches of what is imagined to be the oppressive tyranny of a misogynist system, resembling the Western missionaries wanting natives to adopt Christian morals and values. In the West, amongst other things, women are photographed naked and the pictures are published in magazines. Many other cultures would regard this as exceedingly embarrassing, as well as extremely exploitative and oppressive of women. So from their point of view, Western criticism of another culture for its subjugation of women is a highly contentious matter.
      Again, I don’t criticize DJKR for all what he does, he is also doing good things, and I respect the fact that he has disciples who like him. It’s not a personal attack against what you say Clarita Maia.
      However, a rape breaks a life, women and men who has been raped struggle in life, especially if they were young when it happened. If the abuser was a Guru, they struggle on their Dharma path.
      Compassionate people try to stop this, and start to obtain results. Therefore, I find that the way DJKR despises these efforts with his mockeries is denigrating and childish. He is mixing different issues and unfortunately, he is hurting the most vulnerable people, who don’t need his mockeries. They are equivalent to blaming the victims/survivors and putting them down.

      1. I wanted to add : Rape is also a terrible problem in India, and the majority of rape cases still go unreported. DJKR doesn’t know that ?

      2. And to comment what you said dreamhouse786 “The vision high as te sky, the action fine as flour! “, If this mockery (which is an act) is fine as flour, you might as well say that an enormous pig is fine.

      3. @Julia. Another commenter wrote in that DKR would have Playboy magazines sent to his room. Asian men tend to view western women as objects and toys.

    4. @To dreamhouse786,
      It’s clear that you are devotee of DKR, which is your personal choice. But there is no sense for me to try and respond to your comments because anything I say will be shot down. All I can say, (which others have also been saying here), is that DKR has said many things which have offended people deeply. It isn’t just ONE thing he said, it is quite a lot of things. it might be easy to overlook one or tow things, but it seems like every time he opens his mouth lately, he puts his foot in it, 9fuguyre of speech). When he tries really hard to dig himself out of the holes he digs for himself, he just digs a deeper and deeper hole. it might be a good thing that he has finally decided to stop talking about it for a while.

  27. Bar-ché Dorje spoke out for Vajrayana in the Facebook group ‘Open Buddhism’ recently, and I commend him, once again, for openly, unambiguously distancing himself from the reported abuses. He has done so from day one.
    The problem is, of course, that so few proponents of Vajrayana do the same.
    Very few Vajrayana teachers indeed seem to realize that Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse’s recent trope “Is Vajrayana a cult?”—triggered by reports on the abuses by Sogyal Lakar and Rigpa, conflating the latter’s fate with that of Vajrayana as a whole—directly concerns them.
    The pernicious thing is: the abuse does in fact concern Vajrayana as a whole, but not quite in the way Dzongsar imagined.
    Vajrayana teachers who do not openly, unambiguously distance themselves from the aberration that is called Rigpa, play into the hands of abusive Buddhists who hide in plain sight, using Vajrayana as a cover.
    Abusive Vajrayana teachers, their enablers, and sycophants have a clear motive to identify their personal fate with Vajrayana as a whole and (re)frame discussions on abuse as discussions on Vajrayana per se.
    They need to be called out for such rhetoric by other Vajrayana followers each and every time, on pain of Vajrayana effectively being hijacked by abusers and their enablers. Their predicament is not so different from that of religious believers confronted by fundamentalist terrorists using Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, or Christianity as a cover for their crimes.
    Ask yourself: how can an outside observer distinguish bona fide from mala fide Vajrayana teachers when the first simply refuse to make any such distinction?
    I think that this very point is the Achilles heel of Vajrayana proponents like Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse, who prevaricate, excusing themselves from openly confirming that a Buddhist teacher who presents himself as one of their own is actually a fraud.

  28. Re the Lion’s Roar quote, DKR has said stuff like this before, about Western women wanting to liberate their Asian sisters, many years ago, if i recall correctly. It’s an example of his confused thinking on feminism – i don’t think feminists are generally in favour of visual images that objectify women!
    Though when it comes to post-feminism, a different perspective came into play as strong women like Madonna were seen as being in control of the way they were portrayed, and therefore not objectified by their edgy, near-naked representations.
    I wish that women who have known DKR well in the past decade would come on here and shed some light on why he’s so hostile to women’s rights (god knows, they need them in India) and strong women in general. And most importantly, as per the social media outbursts, why he has been so resistant to understanding the impact of abuse and sexual harassment, which predominately, but not exclusively, affects women.
    Something else struck me tonight – for all the hundreds, if not thousands, of Dharma students who are invested, to some degree, in the Rigpa issue and/or have attended DKR’s recent talks, there are roughly a dozen commenting here. I know we’re at the business end of the saga but this blog has had over THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND hits – why so few have something to say about it?

  29. Fact: every single event Sogyal Rinpoche has spoken at he has mentioned his time at Cambridge and being roommates with the Crown Prince of Sikkim, who was Tenzing Namgyal, the man who wanted to debate DKJR if he had been allowed to stay was his nephew, the crown prince died in a car accident, his nephew was named after him. I believe he had every right to be in that room or maybe these Rinpoche’s cannot find support in their own country. Again eastern countries are generally submissive and respectful when it comes to tradition, it takes a lot of bravery when someone speaks out. If the western rigpa members took a que from the fact they never respected Sogyal the abuse would not have happened. Maybe the lama’s were kept in check by royalty and were the overseers to prevent abuse and corruption. His voice should have been heard loud and clear. I think if you open up the Tibetan book of living and dying the man’s grandfather hosted both Sogyal and DKJR when they were young boys, this is confirmed by Wikipedia. Sogyal spoke tirelessly about his time in Cambridge with the crown prince, what if the man that spoke knew otherwise, what if you knew more than the rigpa people who defended Sogyal all this time, maybe westerners and the lama’s who curry favor with them should not be so condescending.

  30. On Open Buddhism, a member -Tenzing Tenzing recently posted an article about Peter Scully an Aus pedophile. Several comments below that, in an exchange with Michelle Desmoulins, he says that DKR jumped on him and was hitting him;
    ‘DKJR was jumping on me and hitting me like a psychopath …’
    I am not on Facebook but is anyone who is and who has access to Open Buddhism question Tenzing Tenzing as to whether he meant this literally please?
    Bit of a jaw dropping statement….

  31. Just to be clear about my comment above, i didn’t hear him mention SR/L by name when he said “he’s a rapist” and that he has “her suicide round his neck”. But since, in my memory of the situation this accusation followed on from “You’re a fucking liar” and not ‘he’s’ a fucking liar, and since many people have now discussed an incident where SR/L paraded someone naked and made out she was a donkey, that this person had been raped and later committed suicide, i assumed that this is what he was referring to.
    Going back to another point i made earlier about the king of Sikkim being an eccentric character in the perception of the Sikkimese people i know; what i was implying was that they respect the Lama’s far more than they do him in my experience… In fact the incident i mentioned when i met him, he himself was serving one of his own teachers – Chatral Rinpoche.
    Obviously these recollections are filtered through my own subjective experience, and i can’t guarantee that i remember any of it without fault!

    1. Ok to give background on this subject before I keep my nose out of it, is I was present in Prague 2010?? when the young man was invited to the lunch table and DKJR told everyone that his other uncle the living one was one of the most spiritual and perhaps the MOST spiritual man he had ever known and was a true yogi that earned an economics degree at Cambridge and has seen massive suffering the death of his mother while a boy and the annexation of Sikkim. DKJR told all of us he had been living in the woods foraging his own food and chopping wood to build his own shelter and that DKJR wanted to post a letter to him but he did not even have a mailing address!!! That this man was a huge patron to Chatral Rinpoche and had given the only land allowed and left in his possession to the monks shedra around the tsuklakung where khandro Tsering had lived on the palace grounds until her death. I was also present when the curious young man was in London in 2011 and DKJR announced to the bashful young man that all he desired for him was to be the next of Sikkim. Which could be why he had a bemused look on his face during the confrontation.
      I am impartial to all this as I think everyone should be. Was DKJR trying to boost the young man’s ego artificially? Was he looking for royal support from his region. All I can conclude was that either DKJR was lying to the young man out of either fear or to love bomb and flatter him, it seemed like the latter, but why?? It is evident we needed to hear from him, that there was no danger, there were 300 people and one dissenting voice, I want to hear more!

      1. @Yeshe, there’s no doubt DKR is seduced by royalty – parts of his autobio reflect this trait, he writes about a member of the Bhutanese royal family in such glowing terms. These elites need to stick together! Sort of helps to explain his incomprehension of democracy.

        1. @matilda7,
          If DKR is seduced by royalty, he certainly won’t get any points from them if he throws members of their families out of his teachings and treats them with disrespect, lol!

  32. @Rose, since i believe Tenzing Tenzing is actually the man who protested in London (he basically admits that in a comment in the thread you mentioned above from ‘Open Buddhism’) Maybe you could ask him in person to clarify all of what has been said in the comments here about what took place?

    1. Yes it is possible it is the same person.
      I cannot respond as do not do Facebook…. it’s a shocking statement as it stands and it really needs needs clarifying
      It would be helpful if someone who is on Facebook – or who posts on Open Buddhism to enquire of Tenzing Tenzing what he means by;
      ‘DKJR was jumping on me and hitting me like a psychopath …’

  33. I remember DKJR in Prague said the young man’s uncle was a true renunciate and gave all he had to building a school for the monks and lived very simply…if the Sikkim people do not respect the king it may be because he has not been reachable by the people while he was more focused on spiritual matters. Sikkim is a Buddhist but they certainly do not have the same unwavering devotion as they do in the west, outwardly they do out of respect and tradition but inwardly they are like the families you see attending Sunday church.

  34. If the DKJR was flattering the young man’s ego and he turned on him, that still says more about DKJR than the young man

  35. In Sikkim I remember I was told the king was in spiritual retreat. They did not respect the lama’s any more than they did he.

  36. Eastern countries have always had more respect for their royalty than the religious sects within the country, they would unite the country beyond secretariat differences and stop institutional corruption in administration, military and religious matters. It’s a difference in thought. We are more democratically driven..

  37. Does anyone have a contact for the young man or where to reach him, is he posting on a Facebook blog somewhere?

    1. He is called Tenzing Tenzing on facebook i believe, and is posting in the Facebook group ‘Open Buddhism’

  38. I do not know how to edit posts here but I meant to say DKJR said to the young man in London 2011 all he wanted from him was to be the next king of Sikkim. Then we have last week’s incident. Truly bizarre! I wonder what went on and what the man knows we don’t , he should have spoken up about the rigpa abuse before if he had known about it, so maybe he is trying to get attention now that it’s come out in the open but then rigpa should have been open too!

  39. It sounds like DKR tried to love bomb Tenzing, and when that didn’t work, he turned against him. Good for Tenzing not to fall for it!

  40. Has anyone noticed despite there being millions of Tibetan exile’s, Bhutanese, Nepali, Sikkimese in the UK, France and Germany, Swiss, Netherlands they are almost non existent at any of DKJR and Sogyal’s events, are they ignorant of dharma or are they more spiritually evolved or do they know something we do not. It is interesting that they’re biggest proponents are almost all western… has anyone seen Tenzing’s posts I loathe Facebook..

    1. While I was working for rigpa Tibetans did come to events and they did invite sl regularly. My impression, which I realize is only what I was exposed to, is that the way westerners practice Buddhism is way more intensive than the average Tibetan. What we do is really more what monks do especially regarding study. The younger generation of Tibetans that I came in contact with were somewhat frustrated by the lack of ability for the older generations to explain the practices. The younger generations of Tibetans did connect with sl’s explanations. Whenever older Tibetans invited sl they just wanted empowerments (which he didn’t give) and blessings. They were not interested in sitting and listening to the dharma, they wanted images, blessing cords and scorpion cords to ward off evil.
      I know, that doesn’t speak for anyone but who I came in contact with, it’s only true of what I observed in the Tibetan communities in the west that I came into contact with.
      My impression is that Tibetans in general are somewhat clannish and it’s important that we don’t attempt to superimpose a western version of religion on them lest we misunderstand what we observe.

    2. Well known that Sogyal is a pervert with zero Buddhist training and that DKJR just plays – very little respect for him – embarrassing to us to see westerners conned like this…

  41. @notsohopeful,
    I am not Tibetan, but my impression is that lay Westerners tend to study more and practice less, while lay Tibetans tend to practice more and study less, lol! Also, I don’t think Tibetans are as enamored with celebrity lamas, like SL or DKR, so they wouldn’t be seen much at their teachings anyway.

    1. Are you referring to lay Tibetans or those at monasteries?
      Most of the younger Tibetan’s that I’ve met in the west don’t have a practice and the elders just say stuff in Tibetan that they don’t understand. Most westerners that I met assume that Tibetans are practicing all the time when my observation is that it’s more about superstition, good luck, and warding off evil spirits. The whole compassion and Bodhicitta bit are aspects for sure, ones that HHDL has chosen to emphasize to attempt to bring people together, but from the little I know it seems that the Tibetans were clannish warrior like people who are VERY superstitious.

  42. I thought this website was a meant to overcome the problem, not a site to become and stay crabby.

    1. @ Jan de Vries
      I agree, some of these posts are getting toxic, which is really unfortunate. We have a forum for discussion and some people devolve to speculation and insults over and over again.

  43. The issue is there was a chance to listen in on an unfiltered raw debate from two men DJKR and the man in question and they threw him out even though they knew who he was.
    Notsohelpful was notsohelpful in pointing out this is a natural reaction to what seems to have been perhaps over the top anger and says this has always happened which is not true. Even in a political setting it is unacceptable to drag out dissenting voices. Despots behave that way. Trump behaves that way. Speaker’s corner in Hyde Park to the high drama of parliament, to Trump and Clinton shouting matches, to Tibetan monks having debate showdowns which come across as quite ‘scary’. Open heated debates and challenges in the open air were natural for thousands of years! We are living in a overreactive post 9/11 scare age where if someone does not have a ticket they are not allowed in and treated like a criminal even BEFORE a crime had been committed or suspected . Well that has always been convenient for the powers that be to dodge pertinent questions. Perhaps Facebook was an ineffective outlet or video challenge will be ignored or will have a very rehearsed response from DKJR. There are times when people need to break the rules and challenge someone to a debate one on one and they threw him out and labeled him crazy. How else could the man have gotten a direct response from DKJR if they avoid selling him a ticket because of his past with DKJR. This is highly troubling…If dharma practitioners cannot be equanomous with a little bit of upset, there was no cause to feel threatened except his overpowering angry voice, there are 300 people in the room, it is ludicrous to assume he was going to throw darts at DKJR and face life imprisonment??? Anger is an emotion that peaks and subsides and to repress it is flat wrong, to act on it with violence or hate is wrong but expressing it in intonation as he is dragged out, what’s wrong with people these days. What was the worst case scenario people were expecting? Yes I understand people were scared but of what exactly??, it seems their minds projected a snake where there was just a tie lying on the floor, their minds projected something was dangerous that was not. Isn’t this what Trungpa called Neurotic mind, jumping to thoughts and conclusions that leads to a racing heart and wild disperse thoughts without leaving open space …the man I met if it was he was completely harmless and had good rapport with DKJR, he obviously comes from a known family and the police did not assume a threat either. Were there any actual practitioners in the room that had balance of mind that did not jump to ovesensationalized media scare conclusions?? Or were they too devotional to let someone else speak..they knew who he was and therefore knew he was not a threat..

    1. Completely agree – it could have been an incredible opportunity for spontaneous, live, raw dialogue – rather than just eliciting Rinpoche’s response to carefully edited, pre-planned questions. (Not saying the questions weren’t good tho either btw)
      In effect, that man was expressing the unvoiced concerns and frustration of so many… the fact the opportunity was shut down and missed is such a pity.

    2. @ Yeshe
      I agree, it could have been handled differently, but these are changed times where mass shootings are almost a weekly occurrence, so it would be foolish to not stop someone rushing towards the stage shouting, recognized or not. No amount of practice stops a bullet and if he snuck in he avoided all security measures that might have been in place.
      If people are so fired up about a debate between them why not request that djkr meet with him in a neutral space and stream it? If enough people ask then he will have to comment, no comment will be a very loud statement in itself.

  44. Tibetan compassion is different from Christian compassion which is more ‘active’. Buddhist Compassion is ‘openess and being receptive, listening’ this was not present at the London talk, it sounds more like Nazi Germany than a open discussion one might have in the Himalayan foothills or in a truly peaceful ‘compassionate’ community

  45. Hello, I’ve been lurking on this site for a while now and I thought I would share something with you. I had the opportunity to speak to DJKR just recently about the controversy that persists concerning himself with regards to his involvement with Rigpa. He told me that he is very happy some people have bonded over not liking him and that he has been doing a lot of prayers so that immediately, in the next life after you are reborn, he will have a group of disciples. I’m not sure what to make of this but I thought I’d share this here.

    1. Your message @Tiffany is very cute.
      I’m delighted to meet a DJKR’s Sycophant (sσυκοφάντης). I thought it was a myth, but no you truly exist !
      Lurking through the bushes outside, then running to tell the Lama : “Still a controversy concerning you persisting, Master”, running back and popping out of the bush : “He said…”.
      Sorry, I didn’t understand what he said exactly, the formulation is not clear. (Don’t worry, my English is terribly bad, I don’t judge you.) However, I understood, at least, that he thinks that people who comment on this blog don’t like him, and that he is making some kind of prayers for our next life.
      Would you please kindly try to meet the Master again ? and tell him that : “We… sorry… at least me Julia don’t dislike him, and that I’m grateful for his prayers, and that I will make many many prayers for him too. With much love.”
      Thanks a lot Tiffany for your message, and for your courage to comment here.

    2. To Tiffany
      Why is it that out of all of the Dharma students that I’ve ever met since the 1960’s, it is Dzongsar’s devotees who have the least amount of reasoning, and the most amount of mindless adoration?

    3. Hi Tiffany
      I’m sorry that people are being so rude to you, can those of you who have made unkind remarks re-read Tiffany’s post? She says she doesn’t know what to make of it, instead of attacking her and calling names perhaps you could share your impressions?
      My sense is that some people immediately see his comment as disrespectful, I’m sorry that the messenger, you, is being held accountable.
      Having spent a lot of time around another sarcastic lama, sl, who would lay on the most compliments to those he disliked or disdained the most, I’d say he’s intending it as an insult. I’d also say that if he had the idea that you would come here and share what he said that he set you up to be attacked, which might inspire you to re-consider your connection with him.
      OR you could do what I did for years and imagine that there was some good intent on his part.
      I think that westerners are only now, very, very slowly, coming to realize that the western world view is very, very different from the Tibetan world view. We keep on relating to them from our perspective which proves disastrous over and over again.
      Best of luck, and sorry for the unkind comments from what seem to be some very reactive people…

      1. Sorry @notsohopeful, I don’ want to hurt you, but you have a very patronizing tone which is one of the reason I felt it was time to leave the discussion on this blog. You patronize many people on this blog now. You judge here and there as if you were the one knowing what is right or wrong. However, you also make very rude remarks to people. I read an answer you made to Mary Finningan, which was really untrue, unfair and rude, and I didn’t say anything, respecting your mood. I quote you :
        “This is why you couldn’t make any headway for so many years mf, you still can’t see how useless calling names and shouting is. It’s only the simple statement of facts in the letter that finally broke through. People just shut you off, there she goes again…”
        I quote you again also : “I thought that most people on this blog were students of Buddhism, isn’t there something in the teachings about training our minds, exposing our habitual thoughts and actions that keep us trapped in samsara? Isn’t analysis also part of the path?” – What a judgment ! Since 28/02/2018, many people make sincere efforts to analyze the situation. You don’t like the way they do it, ok, it’s clear.
        You dramatize the answer we made to Teffany, but reread also our posts.
        Concerning my message, DJKR often talk of his sycophants reading what is said on the Internet and telling him. When I said for example to Teffany that her message was cute, I meant it. In the actual situation it’s very funny, I was amused and I have a lot of sympathy for her. It’s you who take it badly, you can’t read the tenderness in it. My message is far from the #metoo mockery of DJKR. When I say : “Thanks a lot Tiffany for your message, and for your courage to comment here.”, is it bad? it’s not a mockery. However, maybe you were not addressing me, or maybe your message is not under the right persons, in this case I’m sorry for my frank answer.
        I suppose Tiffany can answer herself, if she wants, and clarify. What we said is much much less harsh than the way DJKR’s disciples speak on this blog and others to people, even survivors, who disagree with them, and much less aggressive than the one you make yourself calling us “ very reactive people”. Did you at least read our last messages ? Did you answered to our questions ? Do you know our story and who we are ? I never had a conversation with you.
        I think that this whole story, all the talks of DJKR, is disrespectful and a huge mockery to survivors, including me.

      2. Re DKR’s comments to Tiffany that he’s praying to have his detractors re-born as disciples, i think that’s a version of fairly standard Bodhicitta practice on how one regards one’s enemies.
        Agree that a few people here are getting a bit too hung up on it. Let it go, ditto for the London interruption. If Tenzin wants to come here and provide a first-hand account, from his pov, he knows he is welcome to do so. Varying accounts will persist, though – we are all prone to subjective interpretations of relative phenomena.

    4. RE: the prayers DKR is supposedly doing for people not liking DKR, I’m not feeling the sincerity but certainly it is incredible arrogant and patronizing. He really must think he’s it, the one and only. To be born in that kind of mindless sheep mentality that supposedly teaches vajrayana though his students are the most dualistic people I have met— that would be my idea of being born in a hell realm. No thanks.

      1. He’s being sarcastic and making a joke – common joke among high tulkus…

  46. @Tiffany, dear Tiffany, can you transmit this message to DJKR and ask why it has been removed each time it has been posted on his facebook page? At least 5 times…
    DJKR, why don’t you listen to the advices of HHDL? This is not about judging a man (Sogyal Rinpoche) but his actions.
    HHDL already said in 1993:
    “What is in the best interest of the Buddhadharma is much more important than anything concerning an individual guru. Therefore, if it is necessary to criticize a guru to save the Buddhadharma or to benefit several hundred of their disciples, do not hesitate. Afterwards you can go to that teacher and explain that you acted as you did with a pure motivation. If the guru gets angry, this is another indication of their shortcomings.
    The scriptures say that because we cannot be sure who is a bodhisattva and who is not, we should not criticize anyone. In that context, Mao can be seen as a bodhisattva and we do not criticize him. That is on a private level, how we see it in our own mind. But in terms of Tibetan independence, I cannot say Mao was good because he destroyed our religion and our country! I must speak out! There is no conflict between these two views”.
    THE MISINFORMATION MUST STOP.
    HHDL said in 1993 that you can criticize the actions of your guru without breaking the samaya, there is no danger of hellish rebirth as a result. Motivation is the key: speaking out of hatred or desire for revenge is wrong. However, if we know that by not speaking out, their bad behavior will continue and will harm the Buddhadharma, and we still remain silent, that is wrong.
    “WBT: Many students are afraid of breaking samaya—the commitment and bond with their guru—if they speak openly about what they perceive to be abuse. Does a teacher’s abusive behavior destroy the samaya and release the student?
    HHDL: I don’t know. Although the guru has in a sense broken the samaya, that does not allow the student to break it as well. If the guru kills, that does not mean I can too! We shouldn’t emulate bad examples! We should respect the common perspective of the world in terms of what is right and wrong. Earlier I spoke of the situation with my two regents. Even though I have deep faith and respect for my teachers and consider them high spiritual beings, I did not hesitate to criticize their behavior because those actions were wrong no matter who did them. I didn’t speak out of hatred or disrespect, but because I love the Buddhadharma and their actions went against it.
    It is essential to distinguish between two things: the person and their action. We criticize the action, not the person. The person is neutral: he or she wants to be happy and overcome suffering, and once their negative action stops, they will become a friend. The troublemaker is the afflictions and actions. Speaking out against the action does not mean that we hate the person. For example, we Tibetans fight Chinese injustice, but it doesn’t mean we are against the Chinese as human beings, even those who are ruthless. In meditation, I try to develop genuine compassion for these people while still opposing their actions. Thus, we may criticize a teacher’s abusive actions or negative qualities while we respect them as a person at the same time. There are still some beneficial aspects of the guru. A mistaken action doesn’t destroy their good qualities. If you criticize in this way, there is no danger of hellish rebirth as a result. Motivation is the key: speaking out of hatred or desire for revenge is wrong. However, if we know that by not speaking out, their bad behavior will continue and will harm the Buddhadharma, and we still remain silent, that is wrong”.

  47. Ok, the comment has disappeared 2 more times from DJKR facebook page. It may be a problem linked to the technology but still I think that the people who have watched the talks should be informed of its content. I hope someone will make an article from it and address it officially to DJKR.

    1. Here is the last version:
      Why don’t you follow to the advices of HHDL? This is not about judging a man (Sogyal Rinpoche) but his actions. HHDL said also that YOU CAN CRITICIZE THE ACTIONS OF YOUR GURU.
      HHDL said in 1993:
      “What is in the best interest of the Buddhadharma is much more important than anything concerning an individual guru. Therefore, if it is necessary to criticize a guru to save the Buddhadharma or to benefit several hundred of their disciples, do not hesitate. Afterwards you can go to that teacher and explain that you acted as you did with a pure motivation. If the guru gets angry, this is another indication of their shortcomings.
      The scriptures say that because we cannot be sure who is a bodhisattva and who is not, we should not criticize anyone. In that context, Mao can be seen as a bodhisattva and we do not criticize him. That is on a private level, how we see it in our own mind. But in terms of Tibetan independence, I cannot say Mao was good because he destroyed our religion and our country! I must speak out! There is no conflict between these two views”.
      HHDL also said in 1993 that you can criticize the actions of your guru, there is no danger of hellish rebirth as a result. Motivation is the key: speaking out of hatred or desire for revenge is wrong. However, if we know that by not speaking out, their bad behavior will continue and will harm the Buddhadharma, and we still remain silent, that is wrong.
      “WBT: Many students are afraid of breaking samaya—the commitment and bond with their guru—if they speak openly about what they perceive to be abuse. Does a teacher’s abusive behavior destroy the samaya and release the student?
      HHDL: I don’t know. Although the guru has in a sense broken the samaya, that does not allow the student to break it as well. If the guru kills, that does not mean I can too! We shouldn’t emulate bad examples! We should respect the common perspective of the world in terms of what is right and wrong. Earlier I spoke of the situation with my two regents. Even though I have deep faith and respect for my teachers and consider them high spiritual beings, I did not hesitate to criticize their behavior because those actions were wrong no matter who did them. I didn’t speak out of hatred or disrespect, but because I love the Buddhadharma and their actions went against it.
      It is essential to distinguish between two things: the person and their action. We criticize the action, not the person. The person is neutral: he or she wants to be happy and overcome suffering, and once their negative action stops, they will become a friend. The troublemaker is the afflictions and actions. Speaking out against the action does not mean that we hate the person. For example, we Tibetans fight Chinese injustice, but it doesn’t mean we are against the Chinese as human beings, even those who are ruthless. In meditation, I try to develop genuine compassion for these people while still opposing their actions. Thus, we may criticize a teacher’s abusive actions or negative qualities while we respect them as a person at the same time. There are still some beneficial aspects of the guru. A mistaken action doesn’t destroy their good qualities. If you criticize in this way, there is no danger of hellish rebirth as a result. Motivation is the key: speaking out of hatred or desire for revenge is wrong. However, if we know that by not speaking out, their bad behavior will continue and will harm the Buddhadharma, and we still remain silent, that is wrong”.

    2. French Observer, it hasn’t disappeared. It’s clearly visible on DKR’s fb page. If i knew how to do a screenshot i would (but i’ve forgotten).

  48. @ Tiffany you accept that he actually did prayers because he said he did, what is there to be happy about some people not liking him? He is happy is critics will be reborn and have disciples? If you are indeed the mouthpiece of DKJR he comes across as a sarcastic, petty, narsicistic brat, there is no sincerity in this statement, I’m finding it more and more difficult to have a defense for DKJR these days.
    ‘He told me that he is very happy some people have bonded over not liking him and that he has been doing a lot of prayers so that immediately, in the next life after you are reborn, he will have a group of disciples. I’m not sure what to make of this but I thought I’d share this here.’

  49. @Yeshe, i’m not sure if you were at the event in London (you could be the man in question for all i know), but i was, and i can tell you that what happened was VERY shocking and disturbing! Someone running towards someone screaming at them that they are a “fucking liar” might seem like a simple healthy, standard debating style to you, but to me it looked VERY much like he had the intention of attacking DJKR! Why on earth would he run towards him screaming at him otherwise???
    I think that unless you were actually there (and maybe you were and would just like to distort the impression of what took place), then your interpretation of what happened is at best bizarre and at worst deliberately misleading…
    There were small children in the room with their parents that day, i was really scared by what took place, goodness knows how they would have felt!
    And if all he wanted to do was debate then why not just stand up and say what he had to loudly and non-aggressively? I’m quite sure he wouldn’t have been bundled out then!
    If i had been at the front of the hall where he was stopped in his tracks, then i like to think that i too would have jumped up to prevent what looked in the moment like an attack from occurring! Maybe you wouldn’t have…
    Maybe that is coloured by contempt rather than equanimity?

    1. To Someone Present
      You said, “There were small children in the room with their parents that day, i was really scared by what took place, goodness knows how they would have felt!”
      That is exactly what so many people had felt when Dzongsar had continually dismissed Sogyal’s sex abuse victims. It is shocking to expose anybody, let alone children, to an ally of a sex abuser.

    2. @someone present
      Thank you for your posts
      I was also there (I posted about it above) and my first thought was that this man had a bomb or gun. This is london and these are difficult times after all. I’ve been stuck in the tube for hours during bomb scares. It’s alwasy there in the back of ones mind these days. I was grateful for the people who bravely put themselves between this man and Rinpoche.
      The way this man behaved is certainly not the way one behaves when attempting to open up a discussion, dialogue or debate.
      I understand that there is a lot of hurt and healing that needs to happen but I am genuinely shocked to see how much negativity I am seeing here. How quickly many people are to engage in second and third hand stories and jump to conclusions based on those.
      I believe it is important to search for an accurate truth search high and low and from many sources before coming to conclusions – otherwise truly this movement is no better than a witchhunt

      1. To Gaston Lefleur
        You said, “I understand that there is a lot of hurt and healing that needs to happen but I am genuinely shocked to see how much negativity I am seeing here. How quickly many people are to engage in second and third hand stories and jump to conclusions based on those.”
        This blog has been running for months, and many of its commentators are first hand witnesses, so they have much to share. What they share is not negative. Following His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s advice, they have compassionately shared what they know with others who have or could be harmed.

          1. To Someone Present
            Covering-up, or dismissing sex abuse, like RIGPA and Dzongsar have done, is grossly irresponsible, and it is destroying the reputation of Tibetan Buddhism. It seems that everybody can see this blatantly obvious fact, other than Dzongsar’s devotees.
            Why is it that out of all of the Dharma students that I’ve ever met since the 1960’s, it is Dzongsar’s devotees who have the least amount of reasoning, and the most amount of mindless adoration?

  50. I turned saw him in the middle of the aisle being restrained while he was shouting, I couldn’t hear all of it, it was alarming and shocking but I did not see any need to remove him, it was scary for 10 seconds, as a shock factor but then we all have experienced and seen different levels of conflict in our lives, some haven’t got beyond their meditation cushion. This incident he supposedly was shouting about as I could not hear myself as it was so loud, I did not know about, the video in French posted above by someone is shocking, I assume he is shocked enough by something to have behaved in that way. I recognized him, so did a few others evidently. the talk was about how Rigpa can move forward after the sex abuse scandal, good heavens why anyone would want to bring their children to the event, if they wanted blessings another time would have been more appropriate. If he was trying to KILL DKJR why did the police let him go. You seem to make some heavy handed conclusions based on scant evidence. All I am saying is let’s let people speak and we can get somewhere, now we have to wait for the man to post something on social media and wait for a online spat to develop, that will go nowhere.

  51. @Someone present,
    Oh, come on! DKR already knows this man quite well, and he has no reason to be afraid of him. He knows darn well that the guy isn’t some crazy stalker coming out of nowhere to assassinate him. DKR is just scared of what the man might say or reveal if he had a chance to speak. In usual cowardly fashion, he had the man removed and the scene was edited from the tape. To turn this into some traumatic thing that will scare little children and traumatize them for life is greatly exaggerating, imo.

    1. Indeed, there are newer comments, I discover that in order to read them we have to
      clic on the link NEWER COMMENTS bellow.

  52. Sogyal was innocent until proven guilty, Rigpa people were complicit in not listening to those abused. The discussion on this thread still lacks empathy for the women who were mistreated.
    I applaud anyone drawing attention to this. When FEMEN protesters posed no threat to Berlusconi, they were removed by force.
    When demonstrators protested Blair at a private speaking event and shouted he should be arrested for crimes against humanity in Iraq, the protesters were chucked out.
    I am an activist, dissenting voices are not heard on the internet, if they were being listened to, abuses would not have happened.
    A Rigpa person has already made up their mind, they chose not to listen to the signs of abuse, posted on social media, youtube, Facebook, newspapers. Anyone saying they were Rigpa and so and so started a commotion and is crazy is clearly not in a position to speak. Crazy was on their doorstep and they did nothing. DKJR said he knew but no one would believe him!! or his reputation would be questioned and therefore dharma! outrageous…
    I seriously cannot take such narrow and blind devotion to the guru protecting every utterance from their mouth as golden nectar.

  53. @Someone present, @yeshe, Thanks for clearer picture – yes it sounds like dialogue was an option… Why nobody invited him to come back, or DJKR himself ?
    It would be good for everybody to read the above messages from Tenpel who gives more information about the whole situation. The person in question sent also an email too (copy-paste in Tenple message above).
    Quotes from Tenpel :
    “Because he didn’t have a ticket and they wanted to kick him out he had to try to make his point in 10 seconds while they tried to take him out. To bring his message across in 10 seconds obviously didn’t work.

    The person who was kicked out was also there. So, I guess he has also a voice 😉 And his perspective and intentions matter.
    Of course, there might be huge differences in how he was witnessed and what he experienced or intended to do and how it finally unfolded or came across.”
    I don’t take part for this man, I just feel annoyed to see that he is easily ostracized. Even if his behavior was strange it’s not an option.
    ——————————
    I leave the conversation here, and even all the discussion about Rigpa on this blog or others. The time of debates is off. There were no real dialogue, no real answers to the legitimates questions of non-Rigpa French Buddhists, especially for those living nearby Lerab Ling. In France it’s not gossips, there are many testimonies of people who witnessed embarrassing situations and feel that things were wrong.
    Even if the talk was public and that Rigpa gave an interview at the local radio the same day, I feel now that maybe DJKR was not here for that, maybe it was just talks for Rigpa’s disciples around the world.
    The impression left is colored by a recent article in the French press :
    “The management of the the Buddhist temple Lerab Ling, and 133 members of the group deposited two complaints in defamation against the lawyer Jean-Baptiste Cesbron.” . Its sounds more like a retaliation, than a attempt to clarify and pacify the situation.
    I’m not SL, neither DJKR student (and don’t wish to be so), so I’m off. I will lose my time. My opinion is that it’s better for people around who feel uncomfortable to ignore Lerab Ling now, and to go on their own Buddhist practice.
    Without any ill will or resentment, may SL, DJKR and the Rigpa’s disciples be happy (sincerely, not a sarcasm).

    1. I had a link to my message about the legal action Lerab Ling is taking .
      https://lerabling.org/lang-en/about-us/lerab-ling-and-rigpa-news-and-press-releases
      This is the way Rigpa wants to solve the problem at Lerab Ling.
      I’m a neighbor, I find this tactic very unskilful; but I’m not Enlighten, I might be wrong. However as I’m also concerned, I give my opinion.
      I’m also sorry that Rigpa’s members are affected by bad publicity. They should know that in the same way other Buddhists around Lerab Ling are affected (people don’t make distinction).
      However, I feel that the management didn’t answer enough frankly to the allegations, there were to many denials of facts. I also think that the talks of OT and Khenchen Nomdrol were terribly uncalled-for; also that DJKR made too many mockeries, in a very tense context, and lacked of respect and compassion for survivors (at least he didn’t show it publicly).

      1. “I also think that the talks of OT and Khenchen Nomdrol were terribly uncalled”
        Oh no, what did Khen Rinpoche say? He usually is the soul of compassion.

  54. Back in 2007, as man ran into HHDL’s teaching in Madison, WI and threw an apple toward the stage at HHDL. The man was shouting something and the security/secret service men dragged him off and out the door. HHDL said he wanted to talk to the man and he asked where the man went, lol. Even later on, HHDL was still asking about the man who threw the apple and saying he wanted to meet and talk to him. I don’t know if they ever talked, but it just shows the difference between HHDL and DKR. 😀

    1. The difference between HHDL and DJK 2018. DJK 1995 would have sent someone to check on the man.

  55. Now, the post and all the comments concerning the London Talk have disappeared on DJKR’s facebook. THERE ARE SOME SERIOUS MANIPULATIONS OF INFORMATION GOING ON. What can you expect from someone who doesn’t defend ethics in Vajrayana?

  56. @Yeshe and Cat lover, i’ll address your points from the last one backwards…
    Firstly, i never said anything about anyone being traumatised for life – that is your exaggeration, not mine – i said that i found it shocking and disturbing and insinuated that they probably would have too! I imagine that (as is often the case in teachings with different Lamas of all schools) they were there simply so their parents could hear the teachings directly. (Not everyone has the luxury of childcare) After all, nobody expects obscenities to be screamed out at a Buddhist teaching…
    Next point, i never said anything about an assassination attempt, or that i thought the man in question had ANY intention to kill anybody! I said that to me, sitting at the back with a good view of everything, it looked like he was going to ATTACK him! Why run towards him screaming at him otherwise? (It’s a simple assumption to make on the spur of the moment considering the circumstances)…
    Next point, DJKR (as i mentioned in earlier comments) didn’t silence this man or throw him out – he didn’t respond at all!!!
    The man was thrown out by people present at the front of the hall who i presume were working for Rigpa for the event and who jumped up to prevent him reaching his target… I doubt very much that they knew who he was, and they removed him very quickly as a response to his threatening behaviour. DJKR had no time to respond before the man was already escorted out.
    I assure you, that i like you, am very concerned as to the seriousness of the allegations made against SR/L and now, seemingly DJKR too, but how, in any way, was this a beneficial way to address those issues?
    As i said, why not stand still and raise your voice in a non-aggressive manner?
    I was really saddened that someone with such strong feelings about the subject was not able to have their voice heard! I would’ve loved to have heard them make their point to DJKR and engaged in non-threatening dialogue!
    Running towards someone screaming abuse at them is not the best way to encourage such necessary debate however in my opinion!
    With respect to you both – someone that was present and is not your opponent.

    1. @Someone present,
      Maybe you didn’t mean to make it sound like the children would be traumatized for life, but that was how it came across to me. As Alexandra pointed out, (and I think she made a valid point), what were children doing there in the first place? If they shouldn’t hear swear words from the man, then why should they hear the topics being discussed? It was certainly not fit for children anyway, so it’s the parent’s fault if the children were disturbed by what the man did, since children had no business being there in the first place. (
      Okay, so you didn’t mean to imply that the man was going to assassinate DKR, but you made it sound like he was presenting himself as a big threat. Well, I wasn’t there, and I didn’t see it, so maybe it would have helped if the video hadn’t been edited. If we could actually SEE it, then we could judge better.

  57. @SomeonePresent, can we be sure you are not DKJR’s mistress/dakini?
    from your account previously DKJR was smiling as all this went on?? ”illuminated smile” you state,
    How far from the stage was he before being taken down? what threat did he make exactly?
    If he had been allowed to stay perhaps he would asked a question but as he was being moved as reported and had only 10 seconds to say something or nothing at all, he said what he said, he was being asked to leave before he spoke up!
    …Have your read the biography of Jamyang Khentse Choki Lodro it says he lashed and beat his attendants, have you read the history of Tibet by Sam Van Schaik, there was non stop abuse and violence happening politically and within these religious organisations. Have you read about how DKJR and Kalu Rinpoche and the talk’s who ran to the west and gave up their robes were abused in the monastery, have you read about all the rampant abuse physically and sexually in the monastery, what is it in you that demands Tibetan Buddhism suddenly needs to put on a kid friendly face, at an event to specifically address abuse, why are parents bringing children to an event that has to do with pardoning sexual abusive behaviour, there was supposed to be discourse about these issue’s, it was not a picnic attendance, or as you had said they were there to listen to the teachings, he was not there to give teachings or to make jokes, he was there to deal with some quite serious issue, they came to the wrong event if they wanted to get teachings from someone who can’t even satisfactorily address the issue at hand.
    In the biography mentioned above authorized by DKJR, it says Dakini’s urinated golden nectar over him! its clear where and how DKJR perceives sexual behaviour anything to do with kink and going to Transexual nightclubs, or the relight district with Sogyal is his cup of tea and that’s fine, that shouldnt mean anything goes in Vajrayana,
    A vajrayans vow or ‘Contract’ does not excuse sexual pleasure and decadence on behalf of the teacher at the expense of the student, …do no harm, harm has already been done by supposedly all wise and compassionate omniscient beings.

    1. The teachings were publicised as being about Vajrayana in the west or some such… I’m quite sure nobody expected such drama! As to whether i’m one of his secret Dakinis, i have to sincerely thank you for brightening up my day by tickling me pink!!! 😂 (I’m a fat middle aged man!) Bless you for taking my mind out of its box 😊

  58. Spirituality encompasses everything in life, all the colours of the emotional spectrum and issues of lightness and darkness are dealt with, to exclude human experience and denying certain topics, or putting a ban on swearwords is the last place spirituality needs to go. Spirituality is dealing with the garbage the stuff under the kitchen sink, it is dealing and confronting neurosis directly, to go beyond duality is to go beyond a concept and judgement and dealing with the facts. DKJR was NOT hurt he was smiling during the whole thing, maybe you establishment practitioners who came for tea and soothing waterfall ambience need to confront the realities of the world we live in. I know his long term students have not overcome their own issues and abuse so personally I just see a charlatan in monks robes yapping on about vajrayana being the lightening path, yet his students are clinging on for over 20 yrs and have not managed to deal with their own minds or have a vision for society except bashing muslims and women. he’s a disgrace

    1. You might be surprised to hear that i actually agree with many of the points you make Aleksandra! Yes i’m aware of the abuses that have taken place and continue to throughout Tibetan Buddhist institutions, and i don’t in any way deny that those issues need to be addressed very seriously and urgently!
      I have close friends who have experienced these kinds of abuses (and i have experienced sexual assault myself as a teenager at the hands of a much older man who had some degree of spiritual authority over me!)
      I don’t question that these issues need addressing, and as i’ve previously mentioned i would have liked for Tenzing to have had his own points of view heard and responded to!
      My questions have all been about the effectiveness of the way this protest was conducted…
      I understand his anger, but i don’t think he did anything to win people over who didn’t already agree with him…?

    2. “he’s a disgrace.”
      I wouldn’t go that far. He’s a conflicted human being who seems to have been living in a bubble the last few years. Otherwise, I cannot explain the explosion of shitake emanating from his FB account the last year. In person, he has always displayed respect and concern for women, has decried teachers who slept with their students, and warned us all not to sleep with our gurus.
      Enter The Guru Drinks Bourbon. Suddenly sex is an offering. Is that because he’s getting old and doesn’t have the opportunities he had in the past? I’d rather think that than contemplate the horrifying possibility that he’s rolling back the clock to 1000AD when Tibetans offered their 10 year old daughters and 12 year old brides to their gurus as a present. Yes, that is right there in the commentaries along with the identifying marks one should look for when buying a prize pig, oops, I mean a human consort.
      Enter the Rigpa tour. Rinpoche is ripped from his groupies & forced to confront a world that isn’t waiting for his dubious sense of humor & senseless provocations. I know what he means by Cinderella teachings, that it hearkens back to our studies of prajnaparamita & buddhanature & the different schools that privileged one over the other. But why would Rigpa people know that? Why can’t he just tighten things up for once, be serious, be.. a KHENPO?
      Speaking of Khenpos, our dear, sweet, wholly devout & monastic Khenpo Namdrol did not exactly support the Rigpa students who denounced Sogyal. He seemed genuinely hurt & at a loss for words. It’s a deep cultural disconnect. The teachers cannot understand our abhorrence of beatings and rape. “It’s just sex.” No, Rinpoche, it’s not just sex. Even if it were, sex with the teacher corrupts the sangha as a whole and harms one individual in particular. It’s toxic.
      We need to decide what part of the dharma is beneficial to us, to our lives, and pass that on to future generations. I’m pretty much stuck with Dzongsar K. Even if I left tomorrow he’d be in my thoughts and heart. But I will not passively sit by and pretend it’s a-okay to denigrate one-half of the human species. I won’t support teachers hanging on to feudal patriarchies or distrusting injees. Dharma has to benefit the people living today. As someone else said it is a living tradition, not something fossilized as a book.

      1. @deborahbouldin,
        “He’s a conflicted human being who seems to have been living in a bubble the last few years. Otherwise, I cannot explain the explosion of shitake emanating from his FB account the last year. In person, he has always displayed respect and concern for women, has decried teachers who slept with their students, and warned us all not to sleep with our gurus.”
        A “conflicted” human being, living in a bubble, with an explosion of “shitshake” emanating from his Facebook account, is a spiritual teacher, guiding others to enlightenment? Why would anyone want a teacher who is acting like that? Also, if he has decried teachers who slept with their students, and warned people not to sleep with their gurus, then he is a hypocrite because he does sleep with his students. I suppose he thinks that it’s okay if he does it, but not okay if other teachers/students do it. Got it!

  59. London talks are down on Facebook, funky town remix is up. if he just actually spent time with creating a student teacher bond instead of being stuck on his social media persona like the other young lama’s there might be some understanding. the student is supposed to be devoted the guru, yet the guru is supposed to be a spiritual friend and put in to the student as much as he takes. expect another movie to come out and a push to get students in at $50 a ticket and vote for it…he’s not visiting older students being treated for cancer, if he has too many students he might need to cut back his missionary work, its not working, the whole thing, such a slick con artist, he does sell snow to eskimo’s its right in their face they can’t see!..

  60. @Alexandra,
    Well, DKR is always warning his students about the true nature of his personality, but no one believes him. He is constantly saying he is selfish, ambitious, and shallow, but people think he is just being modest. He also tells people to stay away from his empowerments, but they come anyway. Of course, he knows that his warnings aren’t really effective at putting people off, so why he others to warn them, I don’t know. Perhaps he thinks that if he puts a disclaimer on things, it will justify whatever behavior he decides to engage in.

  61. @Catlover, that’s exactly it!!!
    False modesty brings more people to your side and is common trick of all charlatan’s. if the continue to come he warned them and can always say he’s honest, but the manipulation behind that honesty was not.
    I saw a documentary called ‘Tulku’ by Gesar Mukpo, Trungpa’s son, everyone in DKJR’s sangha had been happy he was interested in DKJR, he asked DKJR in the extra features of the DVD do you believe you are a reincarnation, ….crickets….turned into a 20minute sidetrack of the problem’s with the Tulku system and how he is not sure and does not believe he is! Well if that is the case one has to ask why the strict Vajrayana vows and all this well ‘technically she signed on the dotted line’ bs. He also said to Gesar we are waiting for him to fufill his duty and take on the robes, whether it was a joke or serious I do not know, but it certainly fits in with the love bombing people of status in his own culture such as the man who interrupted the talk.
    why does he continue as I know full well to include crazy wisdom, divination practices, guru yoga and other mind fuckery on his students. He encouraged one student a woman who I shall not name to make a documentary on him around the time that odious one was made Called ‘words of my perfect teacher’ that student was ditched and intentionally neglected while she was halfway filming it, he didn’t like it and broke contact with her. He gives many of his students overwhelming chores such as this to keep them occupied.
    Incidentally last year it was Gesar Mukpo who started ripping into DKJR on Facebook, I can’t remember everything but it was along the lines of ‘we need more cool hip talk’s who can rap’ ‘ DKJR needs to come out of the closet and get serious instead of wasting our time posting pics of himself with lipstick and wearing wigs’ ‘Vajrayana buddhists are all theists’.
    this is certainly interesting that DKJR and Mukpo do not fully believe in the tulku system. its interesting Gesar has now disappeared from the DKJR sangha after they all thought he was so cool. this probably was the same story of this Sikkimese prince, the initial love bombing and then the realisation that all is not well in the house of vajrayana…One minute DKJR flatter’s Gesar says he should take on the responsibilities, a year or two later the disillusionment. this has been the case with other’s who have worked closely with DKJR such has cinematographer etc etc, the sangha excuse this and say the guru was pushing buttons and the students ego was challenged, I see it more directly that DKJR becomes transparent after awhile and he cannot keep up the charade

    1. “why does he continue as I know full well to include crazy wisdom, divination practices, guru yoga and other mind fuckery on his students. ”
      Guru yoga is mind fuckery? So you haven’t even done ngondro but you want to tell us all about vajrayana. Yay, you.
      As for the following, you are full of shitake.
      “He encouraged one student a woman who I shall not name to make a documentary on him around the time that odious one was made Called ‘words of my perfect teacher’ that student was ditched and intentionally neglected while she was halfway filming it, he didn’t like it and broke contact with her. He gives many of his students overwhelming chores such as this to keep them occupied.”

  62. I agree that this false modesty from DJKR is an astute form of manipulation. The recipee: you exagerate your shortcomings but on the same time some of those points are cruelly true. Like I love the money, I am lazy, I am not practicing correctly…
    On one side, it is obviously exagerated so some people think: how this person is humble. So it all looks real, honest and becomes touching. But when you are really humble, you don’t make a public show of how humble you are.
    And on the same time, it gives some excuses to the author to keep on with his bad and sometimes unacceptable behavior. It can be OK to say “I love too much the money” but after 20 years it all becomes old and fake if you still keep on with your behavior.
    I don’t know if it is a “tibetan” or “butanese” way of behaving, but it doesn’t seem to me straight and honest: too exagerated and fake. Anyway when you don’t have integrity, everything becomes fake and manipulation. That is my perception about DJKR.

  63. @FrenchObserver and @Catlover I think we are all on the same page, he likes to tell people he collects expensive motorbikes or mercedes, this is a truth disguised as him pretending to be humble because the truth is so exageratted how can a monk in robes ever!!
    I predict he will ‘resign’ in the next year or two, he will make a public announcement saying he is not qualified and feels he has let people down and has caused more grief. Of course this will be another act, he will of course continue to teach and wear the robes but make it more ‘exclusive’ for the ‘serious’ practioners (play hard to get), he will keep his trophy students those who are well connected, have money, or look ‘okay’ but make it harder to join the teachings, this will add mystery to the ‘secret’ teachings and arouse curiosity in particularly insecure follower’s who want to remain apart of ‘the group’ and have their ego in being ‘apart’ of the ‘inner circle’ and close to the man himself. All in all im glad people are waking up but there will always be new ways to manipulate and con people. his retreats will take place on some carribean island and he will take a picture of himself sipping a martini to show the irony and arouse a reaction, of course he will be swimming in the sea in thailand while everyone is chanting in the conference hall. @Frenchobserver this is not a particular tibetan or bhutanese way of behaving, i met many and actually they have little respect and are cynical of these lama’s that travel to the west and flog out the teachings, someone above mentioned that practice more and theorize less with the west it is the opposite. these lama’s Sogyal and DKJR do not teach as traditionally TB has been taught yet they keep talking about lineage and vows as if they are teaching the same way as in the eastern culture back in the day. they mishmash ideas that suit the purpose to fill up time in their teachings, at the end of a couple hours not much but common sense wisdom has been shared and some jokes and complicating otherwise straightforward matters.
    His ego is massive and I am amazed people have not seen throught the napoleon complex all these years. I know all the sordid stories of him which I shouldnt share as Id be called out for lying as I have no proof but I know for sure…
    he will talk tirelessly about the skill of creating an artful James Bond movie or how america has the best education system in world and the next minute say education is all brainwashing. India is his favorite country the next minute his worst, the great muslim culture one minute and then a refugee crisis will provoke him to say otherwise. He can post MeToo statements as a joke but not right an essay on how to solve the problem or with immigration, he does not look to the root causes of the current Refugee crisis or the MeToo movement but just the aftermath, he is not much of a thinker but a contrarian who will take credit with simplistic posts so people can read a deeper meaning into it.
    Im amazed he pulled this off for so long but as a charlatan would say ‘you believe what you want to believe’, he will always turn around and say ‘why do people follow me, they have free will’ and act like he had nothing to do with subtly manipulating people into thinking he has gold to teach when he only has lead. people with gold to teach let people go to them, he travels the world being a ‘pimp for the dharma’ he jokes or with ironical truth ‘sells ice to eskimo’s’, he is the missionary he criticized when speaking of christians converting hindu’s.. why go around the world and spread a method that has not worked and brought the results it has. He should transform himself and fix his own society first. he’s endearing himself to westerner’s so he he can get film financing and sleep around without a trace coming back to him. these lama’s would never have been able to do this in the past.
    He really is a vile and sociopathic character with little empathy.

    1. “I know all the sordid stories of him which I shouldnt share as Id be called out for lying as I have no proof but I know for sure…”
      Do go on…

  64. Im waiting for him to take a picture of himself as a taxi driver, of course the taxi driver is metaphor for the guru riding along with his student on a spiritual journey, its these types of ironical games he plays with. His teahings are void and moot

  65. the rigpa staff on this blog will make me reveal myself if i make such claims, they will demand evidence of which i have some but i promised confidentiality to those involved, its naughty..

  66. @Alexandra,
    “I know all the sordid stories of him which I shouldnt share as Id be called out for lying as I have no proof but I know for sure…”
    I’d believe you. 🙂

    1. You are all savaging Rinpoche because you can’t get your claws in Sogyal. Sogyal is the villain here, not DJKR. DZK doesn’t beat his students, doesn’t rape people, doesn’t fund his films with sangha money, doesn’t have a profligate lifestyle. Yes, he has his blind spots & no, the Rigpa tour has not been his finest hour. But he is not a monster and he genuinely loves the dharma.
      Furthermore, he shares his blind spot with many Tibetan teachers. Only the Dalai Lama & Mingyur Rinpoche have stood up for the victims & spoken out about the need to expose criminal, harmful behavior. To the relief of many people, DZK finally spoke about the importance of harmlessness at the end of the London talks. It’s a small start on a systemic problem.
      Alexandra, may you be afflicted with the 500,000 accumulations of ngondro for the rest of your life!
      You can receive instruction at https://ngondrogar.org/ which is in English and free like most of Rinpoche’s teachings. What you can’t see is Rinpoche’s generosity. Not all of us can afford to go to Asia or build a temple in the States. DJKR has made it possible for people like me to study & practice the dharma. I am endlessly grateful for the scholarships, free talks, and free downloads. SI was one of the first organizations to rely on the web to cut costs & spread the teachings. It was a strategy, not an affectation.

      1. @deborahbouldin,
        “You are all savaging Rinpoche because you can’t get your claws in Sogyal. Sogyal is the villain here, not DJKR. DZK doesn’t beat his students, doesn’t rape people, doesn’t fund his films with sangha money, doesn’t have a profligate lifestyle.”
        No, actually we are not “all” savaging DJKR because we can’t “get our claws” on Sogyal. We are “savaging” DJKR because he made himself a target, first by making insensitive posts on Facebook in response to the whole Sogyal business, and then by becoming the new ‘advisor’ to Rigpa, and going on what looked like an apologetic tour as its (unofficial) spokesperson. He has certainly drawn attention to himself, (whether intentionally or not), and made himself a “villain” in this story through his own actions. He has become the focus of unfavorable attention, but he brought all of that on himself. I assure you that I am not just looking for some target to vent misdirected anger on.

  67. @ Matilda, when DKJR says ‘ I will pray that my detractors…’ first it’s sarcasm, second generally a prayer is a moment’s aspiration so even if it lasted 2 seconds while he is playing around with his iPhone. Third it’s obnoxious to go around telling people you are praying for your detractors wellbeing, personally he is not and just needed to say something a little holier to this seeming new and naive student of his who posted that comment.
    That comment is an accurate reflection of DKJR’s sarcasm and insincerity he has no wish to make his detractors well or remove their obscurations.

    1. @Jen,
      Not only does he say he’ll be “praying” for his detractors, but that he will pray that they will all become his disciples in future lives. At least that’s how I understood what he said. What nerve, lol!

  68. They kicked out the nephew of Sogyal’s supposed best friend and schoolmate at a rigpa event???? They kicked out the Grandson of the last King of Sikkim…does anyone realize how ludicrous this sounds. Why would some middle aged white guys going through a mid life crisis know more about Tibetan Buddhism than the last king of Sikkim. How rude and arrogant stinks of colonialist white over educated mentality…Tibetan Buddhism has played a huge part in his ancestory, has anyone seen the Wikipedia pages, padmasambhava Guru Rinpoche had foretold the first king of Sikkim, and sent out instructions in a terton to find the boy. The man thrown out you can see was a direct descendant! His lineage is older than Dzongsar Khyentse ! Talk about condescension and racism!!!!!! Rigpa staff know more than the indigenous people from where Tibetan Buddhism sprang. His Tibetan grandmother was related to Tibetan aristocracy of which produced a Dalai Lama, The Samdru Phodrang family is a “yabshi” family, meaning that a Dalai Lama has come from that family. In the case of Samdru Phodrang, it was the 7th Dalai Lama.
    Rigpa is seriously f*cked up, DKJR must have known the guy and he was trying to expose a fraud before being silenced.
    Shame on Rigpa, racist scum!

  69. Meanwhile the biography of Dzongsar Khyentse’s last incarnation was a man that had people whipped until flesh was hanging off of their bodies. And he only had two prior to that, I hope they did not have a secret history as well as evident with Tibet. Rigpa need their fairytales. Jamyang Khyentse biography was authorized by DKJR himself! Well at least he was being honest and warned you! Wink wink

  70. The man thrown out had a lineage older than Dzongsar Kheyentse going back to a terton Guru Rinpoche left behind, the king of sikkim’s wife was from the samdru phodrang family and produced Dalai lama’s, his cousin is Tenzin Tethong Secretary to the Dalai Lama and his son played the Dalai Lama in the Scorsese movie Kundun. They (white guys) kicked out the grandson of the last king of Sikkim at a rigpa event covering up for sexual abuse that is now taken down from DKR’s Facebook page. Hello earth to mars??? What’s going on!!!
    Repressive white men cover sexual abuse by cultural appropriation of Tibetan Buddhism to cover sexual abuse by a sick old Tibetan Lama that does not represent Tibetan Buddhism whose background was made up and fake, was not who he said he was and they kicked out the guy shining a light on this. Help meeeee! I’m going insane here!!!!

    1. “Repressive white men cover sexual abuse by cultural appropriation of Tibetan Buddhism to cover sexual abuse by a sick old Tibetan Lama that does not represent Tibetan Buddhism whose background was made up and fake, was not who he said he was and they kicked out the guy shining a light on this.”
      Excuse me?? Tibetans don’t own the dharma. When “white people” practice the dharma they are not “appropriating” anything. Examine your own racist bias before pointing fingers at anyone else.

  71. @Viv,
    No, I don’t think you’re the one going insane, but DKR and Rigpa are. 😀
    I was also appalled that they would throw out the grandson of the last King of Sikkim. Wow! Not only is DKR trying to silence those who would reveal the truth about Sogyal and/or DKR himself, but this smacks of something more political. Could there also be a political reason for kicking him out? Is this to be seen as more politics as usual in the Tibetan Buddhist lama hierarchy? People keep coming on here and claiming the man was dangerous or came across as threatening, but since most of us haven’t even seen the video (that was edited out of the talk), we really can’t judge, and we only have the word of people who *claim* to have been there.

  72. I would like to see a webcasted round table discussion about what is happening with HHDL, the grandson of the last King of Skikkim, Mingyur Rinpoche, Matthieu Ricard, DKR, Khandro Rinpoche, some of the students who experienced abuse, perhaps a western female teacher, and sound ordinary people outside of any organization to round it out. Then a true dialogue can happen. Not some contrived and controlled presentations with Rigpa at the helm.

  73. I was there, but I’m interested where this will go and do not want to get myself too involved.
    I heard a loud tremendous voice, it was very loud and VERY angry, it was a shock! but as soon as I heard it I turned over to look at Dzongsar Khyentse and he had a very mischievous smile on his face, in fact I heard them trying to ask someone to leave before he started yelling, I heard someone say ‘you have to go, come on!’ and that’s when I heard a thunderous loud voice.
    DKR’s smile was as if he was amused and enjoying the moment, he actually had a big grin on his face like he could not hold back from laughing.
    My perception and my perception only was that he recognized him was amused but not surprised as if someone had warned him and he had some sort of perverse glee as the man was being restrained and led out, as the man was yelling at DKR, DKR had that cheeky smile that could not hold back from laughing or crying or being embarrassed , the man was in the middle of the aisle halfway between the entrance of the hall and DKR he was being pushed back by a couple of people. DKR was smiling all this time as if he was expecting it. He was smiling as the man was being pushed out, and did not say anything and that smile came off as ‘I’m king of the castle’. When the man left DKR played it as if it was a non event, that nothing had happened and was neither shaken up or angry but completely neutral and ‘expected’!
    Yes there were people shocked but looking at DKR as this man was in the Centre aisle with this bemused mischivious smile was interesting, it seemed at the time that the two men had some history!
    I did not think I would need to write this, but the fact that I noticed it was edited out of the video even before the whole lecture was removed from Facebook has made me want to clarify that it did look like particularly at the beginning that DKR couldn’t stop himself from bursting out in tears laughing, I do wish they had kept that in the video as it would have stopped all this useless conjecture. DKR was laughing practically!
    In fact anyone looking at Dzongsar would think he was watching a comedy show. They should just show the whole video.

    1. Rose, a link to the Paris talk is still on his FB page, not far down, it takes you to all the talks: London, Paris, Berlin & Lerab along with Thalia’s recent vid.

  74. It looks like “Tenzing Tenzing” on facebook is the man who protested at DKR’s teachings. He just posted a comment in response to someone who asked him if he can write a blog about what happened. He basically said he wants to confront DKR when there is no time or opportunity for DKR to carefully craft a response, as he would do if Tenzing wrote a blog. That’s why he wants it to be live, because anything he writes would give DKR time to plan the best PR strategy. He wants to catch DKR off guard. That makes sense to me.

    1. Eventually could someone here try to contact him.i am not on facebook and my english is limited.
      His story could be treated in way to surprise DK and give some more input about DK.

  75. Someone asked if they can share what he wrote on other blogs, and he said yes. So hopefully, we will see more posted here.
    here is the link to the Facebook group and hopefully you can see the posts without having to log in. To see Tenzing’s posts, you have to expand the comments under the post by Claudio Acosta.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1459918927422287/

  76. I didn’t take the time to read the Facebook page of DJKR. I did it today in order to have a full picture and no regret for giving up dialogue, before closing the door and going back to my Dharma practice,.
    Many comments of DJKR’s followers are just spooky and creepy ! – Better not to meet them in a dark and deserted street at night.-
    Other comments of people who suddenly turnabout, who completely forgot what was the initial issue , are disruptive ! – Oh, yes the topic of the discussion !!! What was the topic Mad Hatter ? –
    Phew ! a comment I found wise is this one :
    ” THIS ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT VAJRAYANA – IT IS ABOUT A PERSON WHO ABUSED PEOPLE. Practice Vajrayana, let it live on through qualified teachers … great. etc…”
    Oh, yes we forgot it ! … crazy wisdom ?! 😯
    – A very merry unbirthday to me.
    – To who?
    – To me !
    – Oh you !
    – A very merry unbirthday to you.
    – Who me?
    – Yes, you!

    1. Lets be clear Mad Hatter :
      ” THIS ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT VAJRAYANA – IT IS ABOUT A PERSON WHO ABUSED PEOPLE. Practice Vajrayana, let it live on through qualified teachers.”
      By person I mean SL, or other Tibetan Lamas like him.
      By qualified teachers, I mean realized teachers, with compassion and wisdom, who don’t harm disciples.
      Thank you March Hare.

  77. The announcement made was that the man was mentally ill
    ‘Amazing that westerners keep bringing western concepts such as someone being ‘mentally ill’ or not ‘mentally ill’ and be able to say that in front of a ‘great master such as DKJR:))’ at a rigpa event who supposedly runs on a philosophy of nonconceptualization, interdependent factors, no solid self, impermanence without a correction!’

    1. When/where was the announcement made that he was mentally ill? I didn’t hear those words used at the event!
      I can’t remember the exact words used, but i remember them saying that he was very upset but was outside and much calmer now…
      I’m not being an apologist for Rigpa here, and i’m not a disciple of DJKR. But why distort things and fabricate/embellish your version of them?
      It should suffice to say that he should’ve been allowed to make his point or ask his questions at the event if he had done so in a non-aggressive manner!
      I wanted to hear what he had to say! It was very unfortunate that we were unable to… And that is, in part, down to the way he chose to go about expressing it.

      1. To Someone Present
        You said, “It should suffice to say that he should’ve been allowed to make his point or ask his questions at the event if he had done so in a non-aggressive manner!”
        Many people have been asking Dzongsar in a non-aggressive manner, but he and RIGPA continue to cover-up and dismiss Sogyal’s sex abuse. It seems that everybody can see this blatantly obvious fact, other than Dzongsar’s devotees.
        You also said, “I’m not being an apologist for Rigpa here, and i’m not a disciple of DJKR.”
        That’s strange, because looking back at your previous posts you have all of the hallmarks of a Dzongsar devotee. So much so that I was hoping that you could explain why it is that out of all of the Dharma students that I’ve ever met since the 1960’s, it is Dzongsar’s devotees who have the least amount of reasoning, and the most amount of mindless adoration.

  78. “Many comments of DJKR’s followers are just spooky and creepy ! – Better not to meet them in a dark and deserted street at night.”
    Or outside the lama’s bedroom, while they guard the door, as the lama abuses women inside the chamber.

  79. Sounds like the story was disseminated that the man was mentally ill the article above said, who made the announcement that the man was, we will never know, but it looks @Dan was quoting perhaps from open buddhism??
    DKJR at around 15 minutes into the talk says in vajrayana, emotion is wisdom, the problem is the solution. in comes man with massive emotion and the big problem and they kick him out:)))))
    it’s been reported by several people that he was labelled ‘mentally ill’ during the break on this blog, can anyone apart from @someonepresent confirm?
    @someonepresent may have not heard DKJR from his mouth himself say Vajrayana has always had serious problems and buddhism is not about ‘peace of mind’ if you want that he tells you to ‘get a massage’!!!!, anger is an expression of energy which if motivated from a good place is perfectly fine, these are things vajrayana texts actually says!! again no one was hurt and the man brought the solution to the problem by at least bringing in the problem, he brought wisdom into the room by the expression of the emotion in its pure direct form, DKR did say nothing is rejected in Vajrayana!!!!!
    straight from the horses mouth! he said samsara and nirvana are one, that duality does not exist in vajrayana good and bad, appropriate and not appropriate means of expression, that vajrayana is the raw form, your getting mixed up between the message and the form of the message!
    In vajrayana there is no ‘should’. He did nothing criminal, he stood up for the right cause, you are splitting hairs here, throwing out the message with the messenger, ‘non-aggresive manner’ is clearly your dualistic perception, becuse fact was he did not threaten anyone let alone get physically aggressive unlike that slimeball sogyal who punched a nun in the face!!! and DKJR who covers for him!!!
    Of course men like you and DKR will defend non dualistic sayings like ‘If there is no I, there is no abuse and therefore no abuser’ when a man in robes rapes a woman!!!!!! yet when a man raises his voice in angry way to draw attention to such an abuse that frankly no one was doing while DKJR talks around in circles acting like clown you say that you and everyone were scared and so vulnerable and could not handle that!!!! oh boo hoo! you are so petty in comparison to the women who had to endure all this bullshit! you are a coward of a man, and now you are slamming the one person that tried to bring the discussion that was going off into all sorts of tangents to point, you are pathetic!!!!
    DKJR own words “IF THERE IS NO I, THEN THERE IS NO ABUSE AND THEREFORE NO ABUSER’ @Someonepresent, if you feel abused by a man shouting to draw attention at a woman naked being made to walk on a leash by Sogyal who later commited suicide and you are still having problems with the messenger or the way the message was conveyed, it says more about you than anyone else!!

    1. @Alexandra “DKJR at around 15 minutes into the talk says in vajrayana, emotion is wisdom, the problem is the solution. in comes man with massive emotion and the big problem and they kick him out:)))))”
      Actually there might be something to think about there- this man may in fact be the solution over time. We shall see. Between the woman who was terribly abused and humiliated by SL and now this descendant of the King of Sikkim perhaps we might just see a solution.

    2. I never said i felt abused Aleksandra! Please stop misrepresenting me – i never said he was mentally ill either! I am not opposed to Tenzing or his message, i just think that the whole thing was rather tragic and wish it could’ve been handled differently! As i’ve said a number of times now – i wish that Tenzing had been heard in a way that didn’t just shock people and put them off from his message!
      Surely this is about being skilful? If you want to convince people who don’t already agree with you, then is shouting them down as you are trying to do to me, the most effective way of doing that?…
      As for Vajrayana, i genuinely don’t really have much of a clue as to what it really is or means – i’ve always found the Mahayana teachings much more accessible and easier to understand and digest…
      I went there to get a clearer idea of what Vajrayana teachings are about and how they relate to issues of abuse…
      I’m not much clearer because lots of people seem to tell me that i just have to accept their version of what it means, which seems ironic to me when i thought that the Dharma was about being open to each other, to our own experience, to this whole question of reality…
      I respect your quest for justice! I really do… I respect Tenzing too and DJKR…
      I hope i don’t make you more angry with what i write in this comment.
      I hope that everyone that is hurting will find healing.

  80. @someonepresent You are right, the man was mentally ill, he brought some crazy wisdom in the room and it was too much for all you hardcore vajrayana practitioners!
    there is so much hypocrisy going on here, crazy wisdom is only okay if you go along with the status quo!!! I call bullshit!

  81. @someonepresent all you seem to care about is the man, maybe you are jealous that he had the balls to do what’s right, its been repeated here he was asked to leave before he shouted, so obviuously there was no time to have a sensible pow wow around the campfire, @Dan clearly said they were removing him from the back of the room before he started yelling. I’m not hearing much empathy or wisdom !

  82. a whole group of vajrayana practitioners couldnt handle raw uncensored outrage! Its all good talking about transmuting fear into courage, anger into peace, going beyond the surface of emotions, its all good talking about compassion and openess and using everything life throws at you as a teacher, that there is no good and bad, etc etc and boom in one flash the whole room was tested you were thrown an opportunity as DKJR says grinning from the stage and you all i) gave into fear ii)had no openess to let the situation diffuse itself, iii)rejected the vajrayana teaching and the problem and therefore the solution.
    @someonepresent please check in with your values, are you familiar with vajrayana because again it seems to be okay for men to do whatever they like and it all sounds good in theory but here was a phenomena arising in the form of an activist and suddenly you all became fearful cowards??? another guy above in this blog said it could have been a terrorist???? seems like all the men in the audience are living in post 9/11 fear, in a city of over 15 million people and 1 terrorist attack a year, they are going to go after Rigpa??? I wish they had!

  83. your minds jump to all sorts of neurotic conceptions that are not real as Trungpa used to say! In DKJR’s book the tie lying on the floor becomes a snake! , how about waiting and listening to others before running people down as if anyone who disagrees with DKJR is automatically as a threat. Convenient way for Rigpa to rationalize their behaviour but as @concerned said they knew who he was and they kept him out, if you had noticed Dzongsar Kheyntse’s illuminated serene smile how the heck was the guy a threat! BULLSHIT @someonepresent, you are a PR agent…

    1. I’m not a PR agent for anyone Aleksandra! I have been a Rigpa student over the years, but i’m as concerned about the allegations against SR/L as you are and i take them very seriously… I have close friends who have experience of these things, one of whom was one of the eight that signed the letter back in July!
      I just don’t see how turning this into a fight or a slanging match benefits the conversation.
      I don’t think that those who bring all of this up and out into the open are crazy – on the contrary i support their efforts for transparency and honesty in all of this!
      How can we have an honest dharmic conversation though if it just becomes a contest in who can shout the loudest and come out on top in being the most insulting?
      I salute anyone that raises their voice or presence in peaceful protest, and i’ve done quite a bit of that myself for different causes over the years…
      I so wish Tenzing had done that so that we could be discussing what he had to say more than how he chose to say it!
      I respect him for trying, i really felt for him at the event!
      If he’d have organised an effective protest that engaged people rather than scared them then i would’ve stood in line to shake his hand!!!
      I’d still stand in line to shake his hand having said that, and i look forward to hearing more of what he has to say!
      I offer you my hand in friendship for what it’s worth too…
      Take care.

      1. To Someone Present
        You seem to be continuously diluting these conversations by distracting people away from the fact that Sogyal commited sex abuse, and Dzongsar and RIGPA are covering it up and dismissing it.
        Ever since Dzongsar was appointed to be RIGPA’s advisor, many people have been trying to engage with him in a non-aggressive manner, but he and RIGPA continue to cover-up and dismiss Sogyal’s sex abuse. It seems that everybody can see this blatantly obvious fact, other than Dzongsar’s devotees.
        Someone Present, you had said earlier, “I’m not being an apologist for Rigpa here, and i’m not a disciple of DJKR.”
        That’s odd, because looking back at your previous posts, you seem to have all of the hallmarks of a Dzongsar devotee. So much so that I was hoping that you could explain why it is that out of all of the Dharma students that I’ve ever met since the 1960’s, it is Dzongsar’s devotees who have the least amount of reasoning, and the most amount of mindless adoration.

      2. Well said.
        I agree with your position – it seems more than fair and you are offering a hand in friendship? I for one will gladly take it.
        Om Shanti

          1. To Rose (and all)
            I believe that nearly everybody who has contributed to this blog over the months has done so with the compassionate motivation of wanting to help those who have suffered from Sogyal’s sex abuse, and moreover, to safeguard anybody else who could be harmed in the future.
            I do not believe that anybody is wanting to create enemies here. I too offer my hand in friendship to anybody who wants it. However, that does not mean that I become like a block of wood and ignore what is going on. It also does not mean that I refrain from using forceful speech when necessary, particularly when some devotee’s starry-eyed devotion blinds them from seeing the facts.
            I’ve met some first hand witnesses of Sogyal’s sex abuse, and I have been informed in detail about some of the incidents, and it is heart-breaking. Please do understand that I can not share this sensitive information due to obvious reasons.
            In short, I can not sit here and do nothing when I witness Dzongsar dismiss or cover-up Sogyal’s sex abuse. Please understand that my actions come from compassion for the victims, and not anger towards others.

            1. Thanks Marge – I admire your commitment to all the issues you have stated and actually don’t disagree when it comes to the Rigpa situation.
              I too really hope for a better/the best outcome for all and that this may never happen again.

        1. Thank you Rose… Lots of love to you Marge Tenzing and everyone else! 💞

          1. Marge, i really don’t want to cover these issues up! It breaks my heart that i have to accept that people that i care about really have been hurt – but i do accept that fully!
            I don’t want to stop anyone from trying to bring this all to light… i just wish we could stop turning it into a fight.
            No bad feelings from my side.

  84. There are some very interesting comments here. I am encouraged by the fact that many of you support the person who protested in London and commend him for his bravery. I am less enthusiastic about that fact that he was outed here. I commented somewhere back in this thread that it was not appropriate to name him in a public forum. Apparently this was not accepted as a valid perspective. This person needs time to reflect on what happened and to formulate a suitable response which he hopes will influence the post 8 signatory letter debate towards emphasis on the victims rather than being sidetracked by the smoke and mirrors tactics displayed by Dzongzar and others. Just to re-cap — my view is that Rigpa is a busted flush and needs to be disbanded. Their assets should be liquidated and used to set up a fund to help Sogyal’s victims. Patrick Gaffney and the rest of the slimeballs who condoned and concealed Sogyal’s depravity should be sacked from their cushy jobs immediately. Instead, it is business as usual. Patrick taught a retreat at Dzogchen Beara over the St Patricks’s Day weekend.How corny is that? It is also a flagrant disregard for common decency.

    1. @Mary Finnigan,
      How was he “outed,” as you say? No one said his name here, and I didn’t even know who he was until more info came out. Also, he has been openly commenting on fb about the events he was involved with and he is not shy about stating who he is. He also gave permission for one of the posters to paraphrase what he said on fb. I don’t really see that his identity is a secret at all, nor do I get the impression that he wants to remain hidden.

  85. The man in question has, in response to being asked, stated his perspective on the issue, on an Open Buddhism thread. He’s made it clear that’s the extent of what he wants to express, at least for the time being.
    As Alexandra/e has mentioned above DKR has linked to a Funky Town remix. This hardly seems sensitive after the airing of such weighty matters. Is there no end to this man’s flippancy?
    It’s not funky town,it’s freaky town!

    1. @matilda7,
      Yes, DKR comes across as very flippant. If he doesn’t want to keep on offending people, why can’t he dispense with the flippant commentary? During his first talk, he complained that if he says a lot, (like his 19 page letter), he gets criticized, and if he posts only two words “(me too”) he also gets criticized. What he failed to say was that two words can say a LOT if they are posted in the right context. What does he expect?

  86. He wanted to be a big film maker, but that hasn’t turned out as well as he had hoped. Maybe he should try writing comedy films. Would people be laughing, lol? At the very least, his films might get people talking about them.

    1. I was directed my last post @matilda7, where she mentioned about him being a comedy writer for “Tonight Live.” LOL!

    2. He never wanted to be a big filmmaker. All he wanted was to make a film about the Buddha’s life. That takes a track record. Alas, none of his films have made money.

      1. “Alas, none of his films have made money.”
        That’s why I think he might be more successful with comedy, lol.

      2. Not exactly – his flunkies hoodwinked some gullible Taiwanese into buying Taiwan rights for several million $ – US$ that is…

  87. This comment on HHDL’s video has just been posted on DJKR facebook. Please, go there and put some thumbs up etc. to let DJKR and RIGPA know that we are not going to accept this distorsion of HHDL message.
    “Just to clarify: this video extract comes from The 1993 Western Buddhist Teachers Conference with H.H. the Dalai Lama (2 of 8) from 47:50 to 49:40.
    One could wonder why this particular piece of content has been chosen. Here is just the following question from the same video (from 49:40):
    “And if we advise other students to follow that course of action and remain neutral. Are we accumulating the negative karma of causing a separation between a student and their teacher?
    HHDL: That would depend of the individual cases. If you clearly see that danger, then advise. He should keep his distance. […] It depends of the individual cases. […] Of course, in all of those cases, motivation is really the key”.
    This answer from HHDL confirm that as a Vajrayana student, there are some cases where you need to criticize the actions of your guru. According to individual cases, the critic should even be made public as HHDL has stated several times during this same conference.
    DJKR has repeated several times in his different talks that once a proper bond (samaya) has been established, a Vajrayana student should not criticize the actions of his guru. This is obviously in contradiction with the position of HHDL. It all depends on the individual situation and the motivation of the Vajrayana student. DJKR’s explanation in the talks that there may be a problem in the translation of His Holiness words is obviously not accurate.
    Please, just watch this video and other transcripts from this conference with HHDL.
    THE DISINFORMATION PROCESS MUST STOP”.

  88. I guess the thing to remind myself is the students are the reflection of the teacher and vise versa. I would not want to follow a doctor who abuses or misleads his students. Nor would I send friends or enemies to that doctor or their supportive cohorts for treatment.
    This abuse of power in the west with buddhist lamas and their lackeys needs to stop.
    Can someone who has connections draw up a round table discussion to represent different perspectives? I’m not interested to watch a webcast of DKR at a Rigpa event. We seem to know the perspectives of HHDL, Mingyur Rinpoche, Matthieu Ricard, OT, KN, DKR, and a few others. But to get them all talking together along with others that should have a voice such as western women, female lamas, ordinary people, and the grandson of the King of Sikkim would be a giant leap forward. Get a reporter from the NY Times to moderate! Hard questions need to be posed and discussed on a public platform that is not controlled and contrived.
    Am I dreaming that this could ever take place?

    1. What you’re suggesting is the most sensible response to all of this that could possibly be considered @Concerned!…
      I join you in really aspiring that it might take place!!!

  89. The Baby and the Bathwater:
    A response to “DJKR: The Elephant, the Mouse, and the Scary Words” and the comments that follow.
    I have followed this blog just about since it started, and really appreciated the discussion it has stimulated. I haven’t posted anything until now. But having now seen all DJKR’s talks and watched the latest What Now posts, I have to say honestly this blog has sadly lost its way.
    I joined this What Now forum because it brought out into the open at last what has been obvious to any sober person for years. Anyone paying any attention knew it would come to this sooner or later, and the eight letter writers and What Now finally gave voice to all we’ve known for so long.
    I’ve been dismayed by Sogyal Rinpoche for a very long time and could never understand why anyone ever thought he was a qualified teacher. In my view, the law of the land should now be applied and he should be jailed. But what upset me most over the years is the damage Sogyal Rinpoche has done to the precious Buddhadharma and especially to the Vajrayana through his twisted distortions and manipulations. That is unforgiveable.
    Mistakenly, I am now discovering, I thought that general perspective was shared by most What Now contributors – that this was by and large a forum of dedicated Buddhists intent on exploring productive, constructive solutions that would strengthen the teaching and practice of dharma in the west. By exposing damage, telling the truth, and calling a spade a spade, we could learn from past errors, send out clear warning signals, and no longer be taken in by imposters like Sogyal Rinpoche.
    Throwing the baby out with the bathwater
    I was naïve. All along it’s never occurred to me to throw the baby out with the bathwater – a view I foolishly thought was shared in this forum. Now, having seen DJKR’s talks and read this elephant article and its comments, I realize that most What Now contributors have no interest in the baby.
    I think the reason that never occurred to me before is simply that I am so deeply grateful to the precious Buddhadharma and to the Vajrayana in particular that I can’t imagine life or sanity without them. Naively, I just assumed that anyone with the incredible good fortune to have come across and practiced these incomparable teachings and practices must share that view, and must be as outraged as I am to see them distorted and demeaned by Sogyal Rinpoche’s inexcusable behaviour.
    It’s quite a shock now to discover belatedly that so many folk posting on What Now seem to have no fundamental allegiance to the Vajrayana and in some cases even to the basic Buddhadharma.
    So here I have to insert a personal comment to Tahlia Newland: I’ve greatly appreciated your own responses to DJKR’s talks. Thank you! But aren’t you somewhat responsible for this forum? And if so, are you taking responsibility here? What intention do you have with the direction this forum is taking?
    The elephant in the room and what DJKR actually said
    From the perspective of bluntly critiquing Sogyal Rinpoche with a view to protecting the dharma and the Vajrayana, it’s clear that DJKR has been doing his job meticulously and superbly. And that is his job description. His job is not to be policeman, judge, jury and executioner. That’s the job of the law of the land and its established institutions and officers. And let them do their job. Like I said, let them put Sogyal Rinpoche on trial and in prison!
    But as a Buddhist and Vajrayana teacher, DJKR’s critique and analysis have been totally constructive and right on target – from the time of his long article right through his recent talks in Europe. DJKR was the first person to say Sogyal Rinpoche had no proper training, did not prepare his students, and will even go to vajra hell for his violations. I know a lot of Sogyal Rinpoche’s devotees weren’t at all happy with those remarks from DJKR.
    In every one of his talks, I heard DJKR condemn the whole habitual Tibetan system with its cultural biases and blind spots, and its failure to transmit the dharma properly in the west. Considering that DJKR spends far more time in the east than in the west and constantly has to deal with those high-up Tibetan lamas, his continuous criticism of their faults (for which he also took personal responsibility) can’t have been too easy or pleasant.
    People have written here that DJKR’s talks were some sort of Rigpa damage control strategy. But seeing his talks, it looked pretty gutsy for him to voice the blunt criticisms he did and to tackle some really tough questions in programmes hosted by Rigpa. From Berlin to London, DJKR kept saying how serious it is for a teacher to burn the seed of bodhicitta or the aspiration for the Buddhadharma in even one student, and not to prepare his students properly for the highest teachings. It must have been a bit difficult to say that to the very people who were hosting him.
    What is What Now’s intention and purpose?
    If this forum is just about condemning a culprit, that’s easy and hardly worth repeating over and again. It may be temporarily satisfying; it is gratifyinglyrighteous and politically correct; and people can certainly sympathize with the victims and each other. In fact, ambitious leaders do this all the time and tell the masses what they want to hear.
    But we don’t need DJKR for that. What we need him for is because we supposedly care for the baby as well the bathwater – because we care deeply (I thought) for the dharma and for the Vajrayana. Isn’t that a fundamental premise of What Now, and a key purpose in our scrutinizing and critiquing Sogyal Rinpoche? At last seeing all DJKR’s talks, it seems clear to me he really did this job very, very thoroughly based on the core texts and teachings.
    Somehow What Now has blurred the crucial line between the baby and the bathwater. From a completely secular point of view, let the independent inquiry do its job, and let the law of the land do what it must. But from a philosophical, teaching, practice, Buddhist point of view, I personally don’t think anyone could do much more than what DJKR has just done. Has any other teacher engaged the issues to this depth and extent?
    In his latest (and what he says is his last) posting on this issue, DJKR says he’s just an ordinary being who is not omniscient, and so he won’t praise or condemn Sogyal Rinpoche personally. Anyway, other respectable folk have already done that. To my mind, you’re off the track if that’s what you want from DJKR, and if you’re not listening to and appreciating what he’s actually doing for the dharma and the Vajrayana. Why not let him do his job and let the law and the inquiry do their job?
    If What Now is off the rails, can we restore its supposed purpose?
    The real evidence that What Now has gone off the rails is the present obsession with this character who burst in to the London talk and rushed towards the stage screaming obscenities. It’s as if we’ve forgotten our original purpose and main goal entirely.
    If you’re really interested in that fellow, why not just talk to his family and find out his history instead of speculating wildly. The speculation now going on is wasting all our time and is useless. Speculative explanations are infinite. What if he was edited out of that tape for his own safety? Why carry on about this?
    I had naively thought our main purpose in this forum was to tell the truth about Sogyal Rinpoche so that we could protect the dharma and the Vajrayana and in the future guard against such travesties as have occurred. Don’t we need to acknowledge the pain in order to move forward constructively?
    Think of it this way: – If DJKR had not addressed the issues he did as boldly and clearly as he did, we’d be left with huge confusions and misunderstandings about Buddhism and the Vajrayana that might have imperilled their integrity and even existence in the west.
    It’s time to stop wallowing in the muck and bitching for its own sake. Toss out the dirty bathwater by all means. But please remember there’s a clean baby inside.

    1. To Josie Daniels
      After reading your verbose and gross misconceptions I do not know quite where to start. Let’s just say that most of us on this blog sincerely care about the future of Buddhism, both sutra and tantra, and that is why we are so incredibly concerned about the harm that Dzongsar is doing to its reputation in the West.
      I am suddenly witnessing new people contributing on this blog who are using well known PR distraction tactics, in order to shine the spotlight away from the fact that Dzongsar and RIGPA have covered-up and dismissed Sogyal’s sex abuse.
      If Sogyal’s sex abuse was discussed in any civilised and compassionate environment it would have been dealt with immediately. Unfortunately, Dzongsar and RIGPA operate differently.
      However, given the developed world’s legal systems, I’m very confident that justice will prevail; but it would help the victims’ healing process also, if Sogyal, Dzongsar, and RIGPA admit and sincerely apologise for all what they have done:
      1. Sogyal committed sex abuse.
      2. Dzongsar, Sogyal’s close ally, was appointed as the advisor to RIGPA, which consists of a small group of Sogyal’s closest supporters.
      3. Dzongsar and RIGPA covered-up and dismissed Sogyal’s sex abuse.

    2. @Josie Daniels, you say you are very concerned with the preservation of the precious Buddhadharma and to the Vajrayana in particular. So now, please can you read the comment I have posted just above. Contrary to what DJKR has discarded as a problem of translation, his interpretation about the samaya and the possibility to criticize your own guru is in contradiction with the positions of HHDL (in 1993 and August 2017) and also Mingyur Rinpoche. He seems to have arrived to the talks without having studied and even heard about their declarations concerning Rigpa.
      One week after the London talk, DJKR posted an extract of a 2 minute video on facebook misleading people about the message content of HHDL during the 1993 conference. What type of clarification is that?
      As I said above: THE DISINFORMATION PROCESS MUST STOP.
      And by the way, we need to wonder what give the right to DJKR to speak in the name of the Vajrayana. Is he at the Head of all the lineages?
      So here is DJKR managing to give 3 talks without addressing the main issues (the abuses and the victims), presenting a version of Vajrayana “compatible” with the Rigpa internal dysfunctions and issues. I have not heard DJKR bluntly criticizing Sogyal Rinpoche or his abuses. Sogyal Rinpoche has done much worst than not properly prepare his students and it should be acknowledged. This is why we talk about a damage control strategy for Rigpa. As you said, the “baby” is too important and it shouldn’t be mistreated this way.
      And here comes again this argument on “I personally don’t think anyone could do much more than what DJKR has just done. Has any other teacher engaged the issues to this depth and extent?”. Well obviously not, because Rigpa has only invited DJKR and his 2 lama-friends who have really made some lamentable declarations. Don’t you wonder why the Rigpa’s board is not engaging with or willing to receive advises from HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche? And by the way, they have both treated the core issues in a much direct way within their short declarations.
      Let’s face it, if DJKR is not up to task to really address the Rigpa present issues, it would be much better that he resigns from the Rigpa Vision Board. The Vajrayana 101 talks he has given, don’t address the issues and organizational dysfunctions. In fact, they leave Rigpa “with huge confusions and misunderstandings about Buddhism and the Vajrayana” and they shouldn’t have. Is it because of a lack of preparation or courage to confront the issues?
      Josie Daniels, as you said you have been reading this blog, you know already all those facts just mentioned. Don’t you think it’s time to end as you said with all those twisted distortions and manipulations? I completely agree when you say: “By exposing damage, telling the truth, and calling a spade a spade, we could learn from past errors, send out clear warning signals, and no longer be taken in by imposters like Sogyal Rinpoche”. Let’s do it.
      So now, we wait for some honest answer about those simple facts (and not just a disappearance from the blog). Let’s try to have a constructive discussion and exchange.

      1. By the way, we had @dreamhouse786 also a student of DKJR who came with the same kind of claims. As a conclusion, I told her (you can read in a post above): “@dreamhouse786, you said you were impartial so now you have to prove what you said with facts or recognize that you are misinformed”.
        Why didn’t she answer anymore? That doesn’t seem fair. This is a dialog, let’s go further than just winning or losing an argument. At least we can try to determine what are the facts.
        On the facebook page, the answers were at first terrible with a lot of non-sense (like I vomit or spit on you…). Now there is just the silence. Seems like facts don’t matter, are they all lost into an alternative non-dual reality world?

    3. Hi Josie, thank you for your concerns and your comment.
      Just a quick reply or some thoughts because this seems to be so important for you, what you shared here.
      I appreciate your concerns about Vajrayana and Buddhadharma. Its good to care about that and to cherish it.
      For me, the key point however is not doctrine. The key point is suffering been created in the name of Buddhism and by the abuse of Vajrayana by Tibetan Buddhist lamas and too fanatical, naive and blind Western zealots.
      For me, doctrine matters only in as much in this context as it was misrepesented, misinterpreted to manipulate and indoctrinate the faithful.
      So, I will look on the whole rather from the perspective: will these talks really get to the root of the problem? The root of the problem I see is, that Vajrayana and many of its concepts (pure perception, guru devotion etc) were abused over decades without – as it seems – any correction by anybody and these concepts combined with Western nativity and blind devotion, clinging to outer authority and other dynamics formed a powerful cultish, deeply harming and abusive environment (especially in the inner circle). The Vajrayana as been taught over decades (with many visiting lamas and retreats) created a megalomanic, narcissistic Tibetan lama and totally blinded, indoctrinated devotees. Tibetan feudal culture and aristocratic demands may have played a significant role in that too as well as the support by visiting lamas, be it HHDL – Rigpa is under his patronage! – or DKR, KR … and many others.
      You say: “If DJKR had not addressed the issues he did as boldly and clearly as he did, we’d be left with huge confusions and misunderstandings about Buddhism and the Vajrayana that might have imperilled their integrity and even existence in the west.”
      I think this does not reflect the situation well. IMO, the Dalai Lama and YMR have been by far clearer on these issues and sadly, DKR has tried to downplay their statements as “misinterpretations”, weakening what they had to say or said. Instead DKR “established himself” on the way as THE Vajrayana authority in the west. And some of his statements and some of his approaches have also added to the confusion I think. Sorry, DKR’s actions and talks might not be as convincing for everybody. For some, including me, they might rather ring some alarm bells 😉
      Moreover, my main concern – and maybe that of many others too – is, how is been dealt with those been harmed? What is been done to help them to heal? What has to be done that such a situation cannot arise again? Is Rigpa now a save organisation because DKR is their main advisor while he and Rigpa still speak of “alleged victims” or “allegations” and without any self-critical introspection of the Rigpa management about their own role in that totally sick, rotten setup? Has there been any call by DKR to the Rigpa management to discuss their own role in that set up and to apology for the harm been done?
      While DKR has certainly contributed to some clarity, IMO, he has also sidetracked issues, he has added ambiguity and fuzziness to the situation and I see a danger – based on this (perceived) ambiguity – that Rigpa is not transformed but will ride on that ambiguity and continues more or less as before until the next generations of people been harmed will speak up. (“The realm of cults is fuzziness” – says Steven Hassan.)
      If people throw out the baby with the bathwater, this might be a very human reaction. It happened also in the Catholic church or with ex-NKT people. Such a response shows rather how much harm SL’s actions and those who whitewashed and enabled these have created. However, it might be good to find a balance while not feeding the unhappiness also to accept and feel the pain behind it.
      Last thought, personally, I find the post DJKR: THE ELEPHANT, THE MOUSE AND THE SCARY WORDS very to the point. The discussions in this thread has gone heated and I also see attempts of manipulations which will not help but put off or confuse people. So in that context, for me, as a reminder, I try to go back to start: checking my motivation, correcting it and then starting from there with openness to listen and to learn with critical reflection. Thank you for your comment!

  90. Thank you to Thalia for providing the space & to all of you for listening and commenting. I have, surprisingly, worked through a lot of yuck in a short time. In recollecting DJKR’s root teaching that you have a headache, you are not the headache, I realized I have a teacher, I am not my teacher or my teacher’s strange ideas. As much as I hate seeing people beating up on Rinpoche for things he doesn’t do, I hope people find that their anger leads them to a place of understanding.
    Rinpoche put himself out there knowing people were angry and devastated. If it took all of this anger to finally break through the stubborn clinging to words & make him focus on the people injured, so be it. I hope that all of Sogyal’s students find peace. Think of the many people who knew nothing about SRs sordid behavior and relied on him as a spiritual friend. They share an obligation to care for the people SR harmed, but their feelings & sacrifices deserve consideration, too. They must be grieving. Let’s not forget them.
    Thank you again.

  91. @Josie Daniels,
    So, I get it! Just because there are people here who are not enamored with DJKR’s PR campaign for Rigpa, (as their new advisor), you think these people aren’t good enough Buddhists/Vajrayana practitioners! In your book, they are “throwing out the baby with the bathwater” because they don’t like DJKR as much as you do. There may be people who love him and think his teaching style is perfect, and that’s fine for them, (and it looks like you’re one of them, and that’s your choice), but he is not for everyone. That’s why there is more than ONE teacher in Buddhism, and even in the Vajrayana! There isn’t any ONE teacher who speaks for everyone. Since when did DJKR become the spokesperson for Vajrayana? If people don’t agree with things he says and does, does that make them *bad* Vajrayana students? He is NOT everyone’s guru, so they aren’t breaking any samaya if they criticize things about him that they don’t like. I am not saying that everything he says is wrong. He often makes some very good points, and he does not teach fake Dharma (in general). But sometimes he will turn around and say something that is really shocking, or outright offensive, and he seems to lack compassion in some of his attitudes. He has made some really flippant, careless comments lately, especially on Facebook, which have offended and hurt many people. Also, a lot of his recent talks have done nothing to clarify Vajrayana, and if anything, he has even added to the confusion.
    As for myself, the only thing making me keep the “baby” so to speak is what HHDL and Mingyur have said. if you haven’t read their statements, you can look them up. They are all over the internet. These two lamas seem to be the only ones who make any sense, and if there really is a “mistranslation” of what they actually said, and it turns out that DJKR is really right when he says they have been “misinterpreted,” then I really am done with the whole thing! At this point, that’s what I am trying to figure out. Are they being “mistranslated” and what are they really saying? The answer to that question will determine whether I decide to stay on that path or not. DJKR is certainly doing nothing to enhance or inspire my faith, and I know I’m not the only one who feels that way.
    As for the man who was thrown out of the teachings, people are concerned at the censorship of people who are trying to speak out. Is that what you are encouraging here? If people speak out and disagree with DJKR, do you think the mods should silence those critics?

    1. @Catlover, here is your answer about an eventual mistranslation of the declarations of HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche. They have made their declarations about Rigpa (dated August 2017) directly in English! The original sources are in English!
      I can’t believe that even yourself can be so influenced by the disinformation messages coming from DJKR. It just shows how easy it is to create confusion within the people minds. But today with internet, it is not so easy to hide the truth. TRUTH AND FACTS WILL PREVAIL!
      Also I can tell you that the french buddhists didn’t appreciate that the financial director of Lerab Ling mislead about the position of HHDL on the french ratio. To tell that His Holiness has visited 2 times Lerab Ling and seen no problem is misleading the french people. (I think the recording is somewhere on this blog). Yes, HHDL has made 3 declarations about Rigpa and they didn’t just say that Sogyal Rinpoche was “disgraced”.

      1. Sorry for the typo: please read “the position of HHDL on the french radio” and not “ratio”.

        1. @French Observer,
          Yes, I am aware of all the statements from HHDL. I have read them and seen them all. However, I am still unclear what he means when he says that “secretly” one must still view their guru’s actions as “enlightened activity” but in public, one can criticize. This makes me feel like he is saying that in secret, it’s okay to worship someone who is an abuser, but in public one can criticize, for the sake of those who wouldn’t understand. To me, it still feels like a Vajrayana practitioner would continue to see their teacher as a Buddha, no matter what he did. That seems wrong to me, even if what HHDL says is a cut above what DKR says. I can understand when he says we should feel compassion for the abuser, because according to the bodhisattva vows, one must always have compassion, no matter what someone does. But here it sounds like he is saying that in secret, ones guru would still be seen as a Buddha, no matter how bad his actions are. He still says you would maintain respect for the person, but not the action. What does that mean? Respect them in what way? As a human being to feel compassion for, or as a guru one would worship? I am still not clear on that. I have no problem with the compassion part, it’s the “guru” worship part that bothers me.

          1. @ Catlover
            I don’t remember the exact quote but HHDL said that for the sake of your practice you can imagine that your lama is perfect, but it’s very dangerous to hold that attitude on a relative level. This is somewhere in the many hours of the ’93 teachings. He started out with a very traditional interpretation at the beginning of the conference but as people shared facts about specific incidents of misbehavior he dropped the traditional interpretation and gave his heart advice.

            1. @notsohopeful,
              For me, it’s confusing when HHDL first says one thing, and then changes it to something else. So, what does he really believe? Also, why didn’t he sign that paper at the ’93 conference? Was there some good reason for that? If so, what was the reason? (I have never gotten an answer to that question.) It’s also confusing when he says to think of your (abusing) lama with respect in secret, but in public one must criticize (just to keep up appearances?) As far as I am concerned, if a lama is truly abusing, they have lost my respect. How could I think of them as a Buddha if they are obviously power hungry and fighting wars? (As in the examples HHDL gave with his own teachers who were fighting each other.) It’s hard for me to truly understand how you could truly respect someone who is behaving that badly. Having compassion for disturbed beings is one thing, and I can totally agree with that, but respect is something else. Respect has to be earned and in order to keep respecting someone, they have to keep on being worthy of that respect. I would not be able to respect someone who is showing signs of being greedy and power hungry, etc. Also, the whole guru relationship goes beyond even the normal level of respect. It actually extends into a kind of worshipful reverence. To me it seems wrong to (publicly) pretend to be critical of ones teacher who is misbehaving, yet secretly worship the person you are criticizing, and secretly think their actions are Buddha actions. Maybe I just don’t understand what he means, or I am just too dense and I don’t *get* it.

              1. @Catlover, I think your difficulty to understand comes from a lack of knowledge (theorical and at the level of recognition) of pure perception. I don’t pretend myself to be at all advanced or be really able to explain you those subjects but I can try to give my own perspective. HHDL explains with very simple words some deep realizations. I don’t think you can really understand what pure perception means until you have some recognition of the nature of your mind.
                It can all seem very confusing because you perceive the situation only on a relative level. But once you have really recognized the Buddha nature of a person, whatever the person does, this recognition does not disappear. Of course, this is a very different recognition than just worshipping. Using the word worshipping seems kind of primitive and can be misleading. Still, it can be also an help for the practice if used properly. When the students stay only at the level of worshipping and don’t realize the practice, there is some serious problems and it all become primitive and very dysfunctional.
                You are following HHDL as a teacher which is great. But let’s face it, because of his position you can’t receive properly the teachings. From my perception, he is not teaching Vajrayana to the public. So what he says is true but you miss the global picture.

                1. @French Observer,
                  So if HHDL is not teaching Vajrayana to the public, then what are the Tantric empowerments and Dzogchen teachings he gives?

                  1. @Catlover – I don’t follow much HHDL teachings. But did he teach guru yoga to the public? On Dzogchen, does he give pointing-out instructions?
                    To enter the Vajrayana, you need to create a link with the teacher and his lineage. I don’t think he would do that in a session with an open public.
                    About the Tantric empowerment, my understanding is that their effects are different according to the level of initiation (and realization) of the student.

                    1. @French Observer,
                      HHDL has given Dzogchen teachings in public before. Also, he has given a lot of HYT empowerments, (Kalachakra being just one example). He also gives plenty of others besides Kalachakra as well. He usually provides some kind of preparatory instructions when he gives the empowerments.

                    2. @Catlover – Sorry I can’t help anymore. With the elements you are giving, I can’t know whether there is a transmission or not. It really depends also of the student. My only guess, is that in the public tantric empowerment, pratically all the public has no idea of what is going on and it is only a form of blessing.
                      You need to be introduced to something catlover and I am afraid that following only HHDL from so far this will not happen. My best advise to you would be to pick also an authentic lama and just follow the instructions of his lineage. And then everything will become clear. Just my own limited perspective…

                    3. @French Observer,
                      I’m not asking for your help with this, but thanks for trying. I am mostly just seeking clarification about what HHDL actually means when he talks about public/secret attitudes toward a teacher, etc. If you’re not able to clarify, that’s fine with me. Maybe someone else can step in and shed some more light on that.
                      Btw, I am not looking for a close, personal relationship with a guru right now, nor am I looking to be “introduced” to anything from them either.

  92. I love the dharma, I love Vajrayana, I wholeheartedly have learnt a lot in my journey throught tibetan buddhism, like @ catlover stated Dzongsar Kheyentse nor Sogyal rinpoche own the dharma or vajrayana teachings simply because they are well known and delibritly court attention. They do not hold the rights or have patent on it although he tries his best to pretend he does by writing facebook posts whenever a westerner writes a dharma book that they are a plagiarizer. DKJR is one fish in the entire oceon of vajrayana practioners. He acts like only he and he alone is the official mouthpiece of vajrayana, when clearly he does not understand it fully himself!!!! He said in his talk he feels like tibetan lama’s who bring it over to the west do not understand the culture and society they are bringing it to, the Dalai Lama clearly stated he is skeptical of teachers that do that. However, the only two lama’s who have done a thourough job of flogging vajrayana teachings to the west like it is the quick path to enlightenment and have had disasterous results with it and do not understand the culture are DKJR and Sogyal. DKJR reacts to everyone’s comments on facebook like a child, he cannot even transmute his own petty emotions, “im just going to drink my coffee dickhead!’ he retorts back at the insult. his ego is fragile, he is a brilliant actor and should have really been an actor not a writer/director. He can sincerely make himself believe his own lies, it is pure method acting. He is a natural entertainer and a very sharp, intelligent man but he is a con artist and really when it comes to the dharma does not understand it. He riffs and improvises his way throught, talking in circles, anecdotes, humour, some basic wisdom and some cultural, philosophical observations. He is not qualified to teach and I do not have any interest with anyone on this blog trying to convince me otherwise, because you do not know. you accept someone is a master because someone you do not know who you believe is a master has said so. the true mark of spirituality is how resiliant one can be in under tough circumstances. He is pampered like a king but as soon as someone he doesnt even know calls him a dickhead on facebook he gets his guns out. what DKJR has effectively shown new practioners is that 100,000 hours of reading buddhist sutra’s and prayers and meditation cannot even get you over a petty insult, meanwhile there are millions of people in the world with actual problems, living in poverty, abuse, war zones, or are actual boddhisatva’s such as whistleblowers like manning, snowden and Assange. These lama’s have no vision for society, he rants against muslim immigration on facebook to appeal to his Judeo-christian buddhist following but does not criticize the war policies that led to the refugee crisis. He says his favorite countries are India (astonishing amount of rape against women), USA (death penalty, Guantanamo), UK (surveillence State), Indonesia(rape and death penalty one wonders why he even bothers to list favorites because he will write and article later criticizing India for not respecting buddhism enough!!!!! Dharamsala, India has given the tibetan exile’s more than any other country has done. one minute his favorite thing about america are its universities but in a book written only a year before he says all education is brainwashing!!! he says whatever sounds cool in the moment. He’s a clown and a joke of a teacher, this does not end until we see Sogyal behind bars and rigpa disbanded and DKJR off the teaching circuit.
    I grew up around Thinley Norbu, DKJR’s dad, he was an a nasty abusive pervert, we all thought DKJR would be different and at a time he seemed sincere with doing away with all the vajrayana worship, crazy wisdom, divination, guru yoga, and all such primitive beliefs but NO he realized he was a man without power that way. Yes, he claims to not believe in the tulku system, but if you want in in his sangha, you better show extreme devotion or you are out! By truly exposing the tulku system of reincarnation would destroy everything his identity is based on, so he solidifies his own ego, convinces himself as long as westerners want him to teach he is genuine because they have free will. the irony with the tulku system is that it is the ego’s of the lama’s at risk. DKJR is a nasty, vile, abusive person and all you men on here telling me otherwise, i say you do NOT know him! you are enamoured and caught up in his charisma, trust me in a couple of years he will be transparent as glass..he can sell snow to eskimoes, of course he knows he can because he always has!!!
    Dudjum Rinpoche’s son Thinley Norbu whose son is DKJR, has anyone seen The Godfather can anyone not see DKJR has an allegiance to the family and tribe than to anyone else and without his persona he feels he is nothing! he has an inferiority complex and it is obvious once you are in the inner circle. Keep the power and money in the family. Thinley Norbu has a houses with lots of land in Palm Springs and upstate New York, I guess those are the two places in the world that lack dharma centers:)))), hard earned work for a man who sat and watched TV all day…

    1. @Alexandra, I appreciate most of your comment but this is the second time you mention “guru yoga and other mind fuckery on his students”. If we are talking about the same guru yoga, from my perspective this is really non-sense. Guru yoga is the heart of any Vajrayana practice.

  93. DKJR has said if you only believe in the 4 seals you are buddhist, he says he does not believe in the tulku system and all the religious paraphenelia that he has precisely been doing for the last 10 years!!
    the con artist is telling you he is a con artist while continuing to con!
    He obviously has issues with metoo but offers no solution to rampant sexually abusive behaviour in society. oh what a wise man has no solution to a problem except to mock it!

  94. @frenchobserver guru yoga is taught that the image: the guru and the mandala dissolve, you acknowledge the illusion of it, it is pure in the practice only, in the conventional day to day the world the guru does not need to be seen as a pure enlightened being who you just bend over for. In the Himalayas they respect their lama’s but they dont do whatever they ask and are not god’s! one tibetan lady on DKJR facebook started victim blaming saying it is the fault of naive western women to do whatever the guru asks, if a guru asks something unreasonable in the east like to wash his feet they run away, simply becuase they are not conditioned to cater to their every needs. they outwardly show a lot of respect and devotion but you dont see young tibetan girls taking abusive beahviour from Chatral rinpoche!
    It’s the PR are people who keep distracting the issue away from the abuse and the confrontation of it to the man who used the wrong method for debate! Sogyal was violent and abusive!
    So the whole idea of coming on the blog is just to justify silencing someone, because somehow there needed to be a justification! why because he had info, now the rigpa defenders hop on here to sweet talk us that they are concerned and care about the victims, and then distract us by bringing up the man again and why he had to go! There is massive cover up here.@ JosieDaniels appealing to Thalia Newland to shut down the blog is a very repressive measure!
    @frenchobserver @Concerned @ Marge @deberoh @matilda @rose @viv @ Yeshe
    Thank you for compassioantely putting up with my behaviour, I may have offended some of you but I can only say my experience with this group of lama’s and rigpa have been horendous. I do not hate the dharma, I have a lot of respect for the teachings HHDL, Mingyur etc but this sociopathic twist and perversion on what vajrayana is and is not cannot be tolerated anymore, I’ve said enough and will not bother anyone on this blog again. any rigpa members want to attack me just leave me in peace, im done writing, i want to be left alone.
    Chogyam Trungpa’s son Gesar Mukpo announced on facebook last year that vajrayana guru yoga followers in the west are theists, the lama’s are their God, and we need more of them wearing givenchy cologne and rapping and creating facebook persona’s, he also said DKJR if he was so secure in himself should just come out of the closet instead of bombarding facebook with pictures of him with lipstick, eyeliner and tights. Great so Mingyur rinpoche, HHDL, Trungpa’s son, the grandson of sikkim, kalu rinpoche, thurman all warn us about DKJR and Sogyal and no one pays heed?
    Maybe we should listen to Mukpo since his father brought Vajrayana to the west, Kalu Rinpoche, the grandson of the king and all the other lama’s who gave up their robes instead we listen to the PR people that all is okay.
    Long live HHDL and Mingyur may truth prevail!

    1. Alexandra, I am sorry you have been hurt by DJKR & Sogyal. I wish you well and hope you find peace with Mingyur Rinpoche or other worthy teachers. You have blown my mind with Gesar’s remarks. I wonder if he was serious about DJKR coming out of the closet. Shades of Trungpa’s Regent. I think could live without seeing that. all good things to you.

      1. @deborahbouldin,
        I think he was serious about DKR coming out of the closet. In fact, I seem to recall that DKR said he was “happily bisexual” so I think he admits he has a gay side. So I don’t think he has ever been “in the closet” as far as that goes.

        1. I’ve never heard a whisper from him or the people closest to him. Maybe it’s common knowledge in Europe, but not in California or Australia. If it is, people are not talking about it like they do about his girlfriends. I wonder if Thinley Norbu was. Maybe they both liked to dress in drag. ~shrug. It’s all very tedious.

          1. A friend of mine, who studied with DKR in one of his online programs, told me that he said that. I never heard him say it, but she would have had no reason to lie about what he said.

        2. Catlover, you say later on that you don’t know DJKR & yet here you are telling another big, fat fib about him. I think I’ll rely on my memories of the teachings and interviews I’ve had with him over the last thirty years. Good luck with whatever it is you’re trying to accomplish by giving your insider knowledge of what Rinpoche is thinking and feeling. You’re hurting yourself.
          .” In fact, I seem to recall that DKR said he was “happily bisexual” so I think he admits he has a gay side”

          1. @deborahbouldin,
            I’m not telling “fibs.” I was merely quoting someone who heard him say that. Frankly, I don’t really care if DKR is bisexual or not. As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t reflect badly on him or his character in of itself. His sexual orientation has no effect on my overall opinion of him as a person. What I care about is how he conducts himself, or what he says about abusers, etc.

          2. @deborahbouldin,
            By the way, you “liked” the comment you quoted from me. Why would you “like” a comment and then quote that comment to say I’m “fibbing” about DKR?

            1. I liked it because I thought you were telling the truth. You don’t recall it because you never heard it & there is no record of Rinpoche saying he was “happily bisexual” except as a joke. You’re spreading lies and gossip and pretending to know someone you’ve never met. ~slow clap~ On the Internet no one knows you’re a bratty teenager in Oshkosh, Wisconsin or Ten Miles Past A Gas Station, Nevada. Nice try, shitake.

              1. For the record, he has said in a teaching that was transcribed, something along the lines of “liking men”. My understanding was that it was kind of a joke, made in support of gay people. I don’t think i could find the teaching now, though it might have been one of those on love or relationships. Agree that this really isn’t the main game. Hopefully, the majority of Buddhists wouldn’t care one way or the other about his sexual orientation.

              2. @deborahbouldin,
                Oh, so we are down to name-calling now, are we?
                I am not pretending to know DKR at all. I know enough *about* him though. When I said I “recall” that he said it, I wasn’t recalling that I heard him say it directly. I was recalling that he had said it. Perhaps I should have made that more clear, but I wasn’t trying to lie or deceive anyone intentionally about it. My friend wasn’t lying, and I don’t even care if he is bi anyway. So what is the big deal? I would say YOU are more bothered by it than I am, and your name-calling just shows at what level of practice you are on.

              3. @deborahbouldin,
                “I liked it because I thought you were telling the truth. You don’t recall it because you never heard it & there is no record of Rinpoche saying he was “happily bisexual” except as a joke. You’re spreading lies and gossip and pretending to know someone you’ve never met. ~slow clap~ On the Internet no one knows you’re a bratty teenager in Oshkosh, Wisconsin or Ten Miles Past A Gas Station, Nevada. Nice try, shitake.”
                I was telling the truth! I recalled that DKR had said it. Does it matter whether someone ELSE heard it, or whether *I* heard it myself? I recall that he SAID it. Maybe he was kidding, or maybe not. Who knows? I’m not spreading lies and gossip because I don’t CARE about that aspect of him whatsoever!!! I just said in my earlier post that I didn’t think he was trying to be “in the closet” about anything because my impression was that he seemed to be open about his orientation, judging from what people have said about some of his comments during his talks. That’s ALL I meant! Pretending to know him? WHY would I do that?!?!? What would I get out of that? Also, I have mentioned on here before that I don’t know him personally at all. Why would I blow my cover and say in other posts that I don’t know him if I was trying to fool you and pretend? Sheesh!

                1. Just to prove that DKR has made comments, which imply he may be bi. (NOT that I care about whether he’s bi, I just want to prove I’m not a liar or trying to spread “gossip” about it.)
                  From “Lion’s Roar: (https://www.lionsroar.com/what-changes-and-what-doesnt/)
                  Kelly Roberts: You must have done at least a hundred interviews by now. Are there any questions which you are surprised were never asked?
                  Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: I am surprised that no one has ever asked if I’m gay or not.
                  Kelly Roberts: Are you gay, Rinpoche?
                  Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: I have a tendency.

  95. Sogyal and DKJR avoid skeptics and really only want the blind devotees, go figure, because they can turn around and say, they misunderstood the vajrayana contract, they should have questioned and not been so devoted but then later the problem is they questioned and guru should not be questioned blah blah , im done , i hope other’s wake up see what’s going on, as long as guru yoga demands you see someone as perfect there will always be abuse, no one is perfect, because no one is evil…

  96. The guru is inside, Alexandra, not sleeping on the throne. No one has to see the teacher as a perfect being. They are human like we are. The Buddha was human. That is the reason this path works.

  97. @Alexandra,
    I agree with most of what you said about DKR. It sounds like you know him quite well. I don’t know him, but everything you said about him is exactly the impression I have of him. I would like to comment one one thing you said that jumped out at me.
    “One tibetan lady on DKJR facebook started victim blaming saying it is the fault of naive western women to do whatever the guru asks, if a guru asks something unreasonable in the east like to wash his feet they run away, simply becuase they are not conditioned to cater to their every needs. they outwardly show a lot of respect and devotion but you dont see young tibetan girls taking abusive beahviour from Chatral rinpoche!”
    I am not sure who made this comment, but I am assuming she is a lay Tibetan woman. I can totally imagine this, because lay Tibetan people are often skeptical and much more irreverent about their lamas than Westerners are. However, I would also say that Tibetan lamas have taken advantage of some Tibetan women and used them in the same way they use Westerners. They have plenty of worshipful, young Tibetan women around them, serving as their consorts. It has always been that way. While there is a certain type of Tibetan woman who wouldn’t take any nonsense from lamas, there are plenty of young, naive girls who would worship at their feet. It isn’t just Westerners who have been fooled.
    Btw, please don’t go. I have been enjoying reading your posts because they are refreshingly wrathful. 🙂 (I mean that in a good way.)

  98. The real samaya that DJKR should have talked about is just not breaking with your own bodhicitta and commitment to knowing the nature of your own mind. No great lama insists on devotion to him or says not to criticize. It is only the weak and insecure ones who would say such a thing. I personally choose not to follow him for many reasons but to each his/her own. People now know more facts and have no excuses anymore not to be cautious, not to check.
    Listen to HHDL’s 3 recent responses to the Rigpa situation and read what Mingyur Rinpoche wrote if you feel inclined to gain clarity.
    Vajrayana is not in jeopardy. I feel DKR is saying that because it shifts attention from the Rigpa abuse. And because he is trying to tout himself as the one and only who can save it. Bullocks. Or should I say acorns.
    Many great lamas exist who are not duplicitous and can guide students with great care and skill. Whether people want the dharma or just want a social scene is up to them. One will benefit you for the long run, the other superficial. A lot of people like to hang with their friends, drink bourbon, ring their bells and bang their damarus while chanting in painful monotone but I don’t see these people being particularly connected in heart nor thinking of others. That said, everyone must do what they feel inclined to do, but I really do feel the students and teacher reflect one another.
    I’m still hoping the law will prevail here. And that a roundtable can happen.

    1. “The real samaya that DJKR should have talked about is just not breaking with your own bodhicitta and commitment to knowing the nature of your own mind. No great lama insists on devotion to him or says not to criticize. It is only the weak and insecure ones who would say such a thing.”
      Hear, hear! Knowing your mind is the commitment as well as leading an ethical life. The great ones are not defeated by criticism.

    2. @concerned,
      “Vajrayana is not in jeopardy. I feel DKR is saying that because it shifts attention from the Rigpa abuse. And because he is trying to tout himself as the one and only who can save it. Bullocks. Or should I say acorns.”
      I agree that DKR thinks he is the one to save Vajrayana, lol! But I also think he really believes that Vajrayana is in jeopardy, and maybe it is, (in terms of its reputation).

  99. A friend of mine who I won’t name, who is in the DKJR sangha, said she was told by one of the higher attendants informally that when approached by detractors that they should NOT rush in to jump and defend DKJR, Rigpa, Sogyal or Vajrayana teachings in conversation or online as much as they may desire to. It only gives people the wrong idea and encourages gossip and therefore skeptism in the teachings.
    Instead they should kindly say they do not want to discuss the topic further with the detractor or friend and politely walk away from the discussion. This is supposedly to ensure that the detractor does not get a mistaken or confused understanding of Vajrayana, and also the practioner is supposedly to keep the practice secret to protect themselves from their own ego and also inadvertently spread any misconfusion amongst people who are interested, but not yet initiated in Vajrayana.
    Also any defense of Sogyal or Rigpa will make it seem they are trying to defend him which she says the woman said was not what they are trying to do. She also said that the woman thought the best thing for her to do was to stay neutral in any debate as it only increases hostility and suspicion in the other if she were to engage.
    It seems the sangha are doing there best to stay neutral and keep out of the fight and let victims and detractors speak without shutting them down.
    This all sounds like wise, sound advice, to remain impartial and not provoke distrust in the teachings. On the other hand I have to admit it sounds a tad like a cult.
    Was this message conveyed informally and casually to anyone else in DKJR’s sangha by another member, I’m just curious and I respect your desire for anonymity…
    Thank You,

  100. I completely forgot to mention this, she was told defending Sogyal, Rigpa or Vajrayana will not work against deluded beings as they have already made up their mind..

  101. The word was not ‘deluded’ but something else very much like it, I can’t remember the exact word used..

  102. Dharma and abuse are two separate subjects. it’s a shame they are told to be quiet on abuse of power…
    Vajrayana and what Sogyal’s ‘organization’ represent are two different things. I do not associate the two together. One is pure, one is rotten.

    1. To Concerned
      I absolutely agree with your statement.
      Sogyal’s sex abuse is sex abuse. Period.
      For Dzongsar and RIGPA to mislead naive students into thinking that it could be vajrayana is the reason why so many people are extremely worried about the damage that they are doing to the reputation of Tibetan Buddhism.

  103. I don’t think they were told to keep quiet on abuse of power but sounded like just to keep from engaging in long winded debates that would interfere with practice and confuse people into thinking they are covering up for Sogyal

  104. @Dan,
    Well, it seems that DKJR himself spends a LOT of time defending Vajrayana. No one has been more active trying to “explain” Vajrayana to the uninitiated public, and the more he says, the more confusing it gets.

      1. To be fair, DKR does explain some things in a way that hasn’t be explained by Rigpa before.
        Listen to his answer here, on “secrecy”, and analysing the guru.
        Clearly there can be no controversy that SR, and his attendants in Rigpa, have fallen very far short of fulfilling this basic responsibility.
        “If there is so much secrecy surrounding this lama, how can we even analyse?
        Well, if you don’t have access to analyse, and no matter how much you try, if this guru is not making an effort to make you analyse him, because he or she, this guru, has the responsibility to let you do that.
        If his attendants, if his entourage, is stopping you to analyse, then that means, there’s no point.
        That means, there’s no point of even wanting to take this person as your guru.
        So that’s important. Teacher must allow the student to have whatever information the student needs in order to analyse whether he or she is the right guru or not.”

        1. @RH,
          As if most people outside the inner circle could get close enough to DKR to analyze him, lol!

            1. @RH,
              “But he’s not demanding people keep samaya with him by not criticizing him.”
              Do you know this for sure? Judging from what he says, I think if people have taken an empowerment from him, he would expect his students not to criticize him, (if we are to believe what he has been stressing during his talks).

              1. RH: “But he’s not demanding people keep samaya with him by not criticizing him.”
                Do you know this for sure? Judging from what he says, I think if people have taken an empowerment from him, he would expect his students not to criticize him, (if we are to believe what he has been stressing during his talks).”
                No, he’s one of the few lamas who accepts questions & he listens to people who disagree with him. Witness how he responded to the student in London who told him “crushing the ego” doesn’t appear anywhere in the Buddhist teachings but Rinpoche keeps promoting it. Rinpoche reluctantly conceded the point.
                Hallelujah! That has bugged me for years. As have his book titles. Not for happiness? Of COURSE, the dharma is for happiness. Lovingkindness, joy, equanimity, transforming suffering and negative emotions: if this isn’t happiness I don’t know what is. What doesn’t make me a Buddhist? Who thinks like that? The Buddha wasn’t a Buddhist. Give up all labels you said. So I did.;)
                I would happily say this to his face or DM him on FB. What I wouldn’t do is call him a vile, despicable pervert or run at him screaming. He is still my teacher, but I am free to not read his books and to rely on teachings from khenpos and other teachers. He is not the only star in the sky; he is my nearby moon.
                I hope this clarifies things a little. I hear you on the sycophants. They drive me crazy, too.

                1. @deborahbouldin,
                  “I hope this clarifies things a little. I hear you on the sycophants. They drive me crazy, too.”
                  I’m glad we can agree on something. 🙂 The “sycophants” seem to drive HIM crazy too, so there’s that, lol! I can’t blame him there! It must be hard to put up with that, even as a guru, (who enjoys attention).
                  I wouldn’t call him a “vile, despicable pervert or run at him screaming” either. I don’t like some things about him, but I don’t hate him. I just don’t have a favorable opinion of him, and I don’t necessarily trust him, but I wouldn’t call him those names.

          1. Everyone *should* take what he says about himself at face value.
            He’s just a man who, as part of his role, has teachings to preserve, even if he has not realized them himself.
            It’s also clear that DKR is not impressed by the sycophants who post on his Facebook – he was more impressed by Tahlia’s posts on this blog, and shared them with all his students.
            I think he wants to be intelligently challenged. I don’t see a good reason to want to destroy him – he’s imperfect, clearly, but he’s not the baddie here.
            We should want to continue conversing and debating. He has admitted there was real harm done, but I think he’s also in over his head. I know he was genuinely shocked to hear some of the details in person.
            He also takes the “progressive” view that he wants there to be a genuine Western dharma, completely free of Tibetan culture. So it’s a conversation worth having.

            1. @RH,
              ” I know he was genuinely shocked to hear some of the details in person.”
              I doubt that DKR would be shocked about Sogyal because the high lamas in the inner circle hear a LOT about each other. They know what’s going on, and they get letters from students all the time, so there is no way I am going to believe that DKR would be “shocked” to hear about Sogyal. He may be pretending to be shocked, but I am not naive enough to think he would *really* be shocked.

              1. You don’t know anything about DKR. You aren’t his student, you’ve never met him.

  105. My analysis is that because Vajrayana in the west is inextricably linked to Trungpa, Sogyal, Thinley Norbu, Dudjum, DKJR, they might feel that if one of the teachers gets dragged in the mud it will ruin confidence in Vajrayana and associate with abuse rather than with liberation.

    1. To Dan
      There are so many people from the West who have been studying and practicing sutra and tantra for a long time, who would add many more lamas’ names to that list; lamas from all four major traditions; Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya, Geluk.
      Moreover, many people believe that Sogyal and Dzongsar do not now represent the true, pure face of vajrayana, and therefore their names should not be added to that list. But RIGPA would tell you different.

    2. Dan,
      Vajrayana in the West is also inextricably linked to His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Khenchen Jigme Phuntsok, the Karmapa, the Dalai Lama, Patrul Rinpoche, Longchenpa, & Milarepa. We have plenty of good examples to follow.

  106. @ Marge of course you are right, but still the ones I have mentioned have been quite prolific. From their point of view they feel Vajrayana might fizzle if scandals were found. From their point of view they are protecting Vajrayana by not addressing the issue of abuse. If papers were reporting a Tibetan Vajrayana practice was linked to abuse it might turn people off. If the lama’s are more concerned people will be more turned off by them than Vajrayana is another question, using the excuse to protecting Vajrayana.
    After reading this blog and careful consideration of what my friend was advised to keep silent it does seem more likely they are using the excuse to protect Vajrayana to protect themselves from scandal.
    I really have as good a guess as anyone, but I don’t like this suggestion of walking away from detractors or critics, it seems to stop the student from questioning him or her faith and is not transparent to outsiders who are trying to understand things in their own way without being a disciple and see if their has been abuse.

  107. Dan, I would caution against relying on anyone but DJKR for what he thinks and wants from a student.

    1. Marge, had she taken vows with Rinpoche? Did she practice and study? Rinpoche slept with many people when he was younger. Her opinion as a sex partner is interesting, but for me, it doesn’t hold the same weight as the opinion of another student. That’s just me. Obviously, you feel differently.

      1. To deborahbouldin
        I’m merely reiterating my friend’s observations, and I’m sorry if it upset you.
        She knew Dzongsar, extremely intimately, and she believes that he has now gone off the rails. What she says about him being a narcissist, is what is witnessed by many people; other than Dzongsar’s devotees.

        1. Marge, you didn’t upset me. I met him on retreat 30 years ago. I’ve accepted my fate.;) I’m not a groupie. I don’t fawn over his every action & pronouncement. I examine what he says & adopt it if it makes sense. You’ve done your job & warned me. I can take it from here.

      2. I should add that I primarily judge him by the way he teaches the dharma at the teachings I’ve received in person & the instructions he gives me in private. If he was a profligate ***** like Sogyal I would drop him instantly–maybe. I might also stick around long enough to see if he expressed regret & reformed and/or if he had an illness that precipitated his strange behavior.Frankly, I don’t understand why Rinpoche has become so popular. He has always been eccentric & a little too wild.

        1. To deborahbouldin
          You said, “Frankly, I don’t understand why Rinpoche has become so popular.“
          Easy answer: Dzongsar is not that popular, and he is currently being frowned upon by many people in the West and in the Tibetan communities.
          The people who warm to Dzongsar’s antics tend to be starry-eyed devotees whose naive devotion blinds them from seeing what everybody else sees.

          1. Marge, I can only say that after studying with a great, warm, perfectly correct and devout khenpo who didn’t understand me, that whatever his many faults for other people, Dzongsar Khyentse has stuck by me even when he didn’t understand me. He has put up with me & I’ve had to put with him sometimes. When he gave me pointing out instructions, I got it experientially. With Khenpo it was intellectual. One effect of testing the guru for many years is being able to let down your guard & just be open to what your teacher is giving you. I understand why traditionalists look askance at him. I’m not thrilled with his private life, I don’t hang out with him. I’m there for the dharma, nothing else.

            1. @deborahboudin, I want to just interject and say thank you. I think you are offering a valid and sane alternative perspective that is worth hearing and puts another dimension on the conversation. For myself, in the light of the fact that I believe many of these troubles are not confined to just a few lamas, deaorahbouldin’s perspective gives a safe– or at least ‘safer’ way for Westerners to continue in the Dharma during this critical and precarious time. So that’s nice angle to consider imo.

              1. @deborahboudin, nonetheless I don’t think that DKR is the lama who can best lead Rigpa forward at this time. I think this judgment is one that many are feeling and for good reasons.

                1. Joanne, I concur. He is not suited to this task. I would much prefer His Holiness the Dalai Lama or Mingyur Rinpoche. I think, I speculate that he is running on juice from the late HH DIlgo Khyentse Rinpoche who tasked him with healing the Vajradhatu sangha after the Regent effectively murdered a teenage sangha member with AIDS. Rinpoche was very young & still under the sway of His Holiness. He had that quirky, uninhibited humor combined with a deep commitment to the dharma that soothed & inspired a lot of the oldest Trungpa students. That’s a boon for them now that the Sakyong has terminated the Kagyu-Nyingma teachings of Trungpa Rinpoche. ~sigh. So much sorrow over what should be joyful.

            2. Deborah, the above (8.35am) & your post of 11.10 am today are a lovely evocation of how you negotiate the guru-disciple relationship with DKR. You’ve stuck by each other through thick and thin!
              I would like to ask you a question if that’s ok. Suppose you had just today or in the past year or so attended a teaching of DKRs for the first time. Do you think you would be able to get past the razzamatazz, and the baggage, to still make the connection that’s worked for you – or do you think that would be a hard ask?
              I only ask as that’s what occurred to me after reading your descriptions today.

  108. @deborahbouldin,
    Okay, DKR is your teacher. FINE. He isn’t mine, and I have a right to have an opinion about him, even if you don’t happen to like it. DKR made it quite clear in many of his recent talks, which I have been listening to (did you listen?) that once you make a formal Vajrayana commitment to a teacher, then you must have “pure view” and see their actions as Buddha actions, and at least aspire to do what your guru says. Did you hear the part about how he hope his guru would never tell him to jump off a building and how he would aspire to be able to do that, even if he couldn’t actually do it? Did you hear the part about how he would “miss a (football) match” if his guru told him to? Or how he would visualize trump if his guru told him to? Obviously, he thinks one should do what their guru says, so why wouldn’t he expect his students to do what HE says? I am quite sure he does.
    It’s true I don’t know him, but do you? How many of his students *really* know him personally. He is a celebrity lama, with an image to maintain, and very FEW people get into his closed inner circle of people who actually interact with him up close in a real, personal relationship.

    1. “Okay, DKR is your teacher. FINE. He isn’t mine, and I have a right to have an opinion about him, even if you don’t happen to like it.”
      You’re quite sure. You know. You bully & contradict people who were at the teachings. You present your opinions as facts when it’s not even clear you’re a practitioner. You’re mystified by pure perception and have no idea what “pure view” is. You slander a heart son of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and encourage people to not study with him. You’re a disrupter, a troll, you can’t even abide by the guidelines for this blog. A thousand years ago people would have “liberated” you with wrathful practice. Now I can only sigh and clean up after you a little so sincere students won’t be distracted by your lies presented as facts.
      Here are the rules you’ve forgotten, emphasis on avoiding aggressive tone and being anti-Tibetan Buddhism. Respect? yeah, it’s a good idea.
      “What Now? aims to educate, examine & inform from a reformist viewpoint, and our intended readership are people with a similar view. Though we are not blind to their shortfalls, we are not anti-Rigpa, anti-Tibetan Buddhism or anti-religion. Please **respect** this in your comments and avoid an aggressive tone.”

      1. @deborahbouldin,
        I am offended that you accused me of lying when I had no intention of lying, so you are the one who started out being aggressive toward me. If you can’t apologize for accusing me of lying, then I don’t want to engage with you any further.

        1. You lie. There is no getting around it. You aren’t just hurting the dharma, you are hurting yourself.

          1. @deborahbouldin,
            I don’t intentionally lie. I have been wrong about things, and I am not perfect, but I don’t try to deceive people on purpose. That’s all I can say. if you don’t believe me, that’s too bad. But at least I know that I am trying to be truthful as best I can.

      2. To Deborahbouldin
        You said this to @catlover, in relation to Dzongsar, “You slander a heart son of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and encourage people to not study with him. A thousand years ago people would have “liberated” you with wrathful practice.”
        1. I personally do not believe that Dzongsar is considered to be a “heart son of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche”. And if he was, he doesn’t act like it.
        2. Even though most tulkus have a huge amount of potential from previous lives, many of them still need to rigorously train. Moreover, until they reach the level of arhathood, they are still susceptible to the arising of their old negative habits, which means that some of these tulkus can still go off the rails, particularly when they immerse themselves in modern cultures which can act as the external conditions for these old negative habits to arise. This has happened to numerous tulkus before. Has this also happened to Dzongsar?
        3. When you said “wrathful practice”, I don’t know if you had alluded to a dharma protector, but if you did, to me it’s clear whose side the dharma protectors would be on – His Holiness the Dalai Lama; whose clear compassionate statement about Sogyal categorically overrides Dzongsar’s murky ramblings.

        1. Marge, if there was a way to upload photos I could show you that DJKR lived with His Holiness from a very young age. His Holiness loved all his students but Dzongsar Khyentse had a special place because he believed him to be the reincarnation of one of Dilgo Khyentse’s root gurus.There is a telling photo of His Holiness, Trulshik Rinpoche, Dzongsar Khyentse, and His Holiness’ grandson and dharma heir Rabjam Rinpoche. These people were close to his heart.
          Clearly, Dzongsar Khyentse isn’t the teacher for you, but he’s not the bad guy here. Sogyal is.
          It’s a little weird to me that you think the sambhogakaya deities take sides, but whatever.

          1. @deborahbouldin,
            “Clearly, Dzongsar Khyentse isn’t the teacher for you, but he’s not the bad guy here. Sogyal is.”
            Dzongsar Khyentse dragged himself into this mess by associating himself with Rigpa and Sogyal. First, he wrote that LONG 19 page letter in response to what the 8 wrote. Then he made some flippant comments on Facebook, such as the “me too” post and the infamous “sex contract.” Then he became Rigpa’s new advisor, and went on a long tour to “explain” Vajrayana. How is he not involved? it’s not like he is just some innocent bystander who has nothing to do with Rigpa. He may not be the “bad guy” exactly, but he sure put himself right into the middle of everything. That’s why everyone is focused on him now instead of Sogyal.

          2. To deborahbouldin
            Photos of young tulkus hanging around past great lamas, does not mean that those tulkus will grow up without flaws.
            His Holiness the Dalai Lama has always stated that it is what the tulku does in their present life that counts.
            I’ve seen all of these photos that you are refering to, and they are lovely – I really do mean that.
            I’ve derived an immense amount of inspiration from Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Trulshik Rinpoche, and Rabjam Rinpoche. But I wish I could say the same for Dzongsar.
            I hope that one day Dzongsar will change, as despite the fact that he can be very hypocritical and judgemental, and that he has really upset many people with his social media stunts, there are a number of obvious qualities that are clearly evident in him too, such as the projects that he has endorsed or instigated, and I understand why his “teaching style” appeals to a “certain” demographic.
            It’s just that Dzongsar has now crossed the line with what he recently said and didn’t say. And this is the first time in my life that I’ve spoken out against him. What Sogyal did for all of those years is extremely serious. And if Dzongsar isn’t careful, his reputation will go down with the sinking ship of RIGPA.

            1. Marge, I concur. It is so sad to see. DJKR cares about people’s opinions very much. It hurts him to think about losing students. But–he is not handling this with wisdom & skillful means. He has completely misjudged the fury of Western women. #TimesUp

          3. To deborahbouldin
            You said, “It’s a little weird to me that you think the sambhogakaya deities take sides, but whatever.”
            I never said that.
            I had merely alluded to the fact that dharma protectors, either enlightened or worldly, will side with protecting pure dharma – hence the term “Dharma Protectors”.

            1. Marge, not all wrathful practice is about dharma protectors. In my limited understanding dharma protectors are considered “mundane”, not enlightened. Maybe they exist in some relatively tangible way, maybe they don’t. All I know is that I’m not going to be paying for those particular teachings because a) I don’t need more superstition in my life and b) I am categorically unwilling to devote my life to protector practice. Nope nope nope. And that’s what the teachers are requiring: commitment.
              As for so-called wrathful deities, they are the flip side of the peaceful. They are not really about wrath at all; they are about compassionate activity. “Leave the bliss of meditation& manifest in the world, fool.” The wrathful come from the brain, the peaceful come from the heart-mind. And they are not mundane. They do not take sides. They are not mired in duality. That’s Longchenpa & that’s who I’m sticking with. Everyone’s mileage will vary. peace.

              1. To deborahbouldin
                Again Deborah, your initial words to @catlover were ambiguous and therefore open to interpretation, hence my initial response.
                You also seem to be presuming something that I did not even imply, and moreover, you seem to have digressed with explanations about things which aren’t even related to the pertinent topic that is currently being discussed, ie. Dzongsar’s silence about Sogyal’s sex abuse.
                Anyway, rather than turning this into a forum for discussing the nuances of certain practices, and since you did say that you had a limited understanding, here are a couple of links to material that are related to your digressions.
                https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/vajrayana/tantra-theory/making-sense-of-tantra
                https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/vajrayana/tantra-advanced/what-are-dharma-protectors

        2. @Marge,
          “When you said “wrathful practice”, I don’t know if you had alluded to a dharma protector, but if you did, to me it’s clear whose side the dharma protectors would be on – His Holiness the Dalai Lama; whose clear compassionate statement about Sogyal categorically overrides Dzongsar’s murky ramblings.”
          Ha, ha! I can just see Palden Lhamo kicking bu**, lol! 😀
          Also, I wasn’t even trying to slander DKR anyway. That’s the ironic part, lol!

  109. @deborahbouldin,
    I think it’s possible to form a pretty comprehensive opinion about someone, even if it’s someone you don’t know, especially if they say as much as DKR does. 😀 If one could not form an opinion about someone who talks in the media, how could people vote in elections? It is totally possible to have an opinion about someone’s views, attitudes, and behavior without knowing them personally, especially a politician or a celebrity. I never pretended to know him and it irks me that you seem to think I am trying to fool you. It never even occurred to me to try and deceive anyone into thinking that I know DKR personally.

    1. Of course, it’s possible to form an opinion based on what you hear in the media. The problem is you tell people “Oh no, that’s not what he means; This is what he really means” speaking as if you know him personally. Rinpoche is a complex, quirky character. When he teaches the dharma in private he is very correct and serious. When he writes his books he is also sincere but he has started using terms and titles that are a little unconventional & even at odds with what he has taught during teaching the commentaries.When he teaches in public he can be hysterically funny, irreverent & charming. He can also ramble. While it’s great you rely on your intuition, in the case of DJKR, your intuition is wrong. Who knows? Maybe if you met him in person your defenses would crumble & he could be your perfect teacher. Or maybe meeting him in person would be that extra bit of merit that would propel you to your true spiritual calling. Anything is possible.

      1. @deborahbouldin,
        I doubt that DKR would be my ‘perfect’ teacher, lol! 🙂 I already met the only one I considered to be my ‘perfect’ teacher, but I am having doubts about ALL of them right now, and I’m trying to sort through it and decide how I really feel. That is my own crisis of faith. Sorry if it bothers everyone. I can’t help it, and it’s painful for me.
        As for DKR, I am intelligent enough to know what he says and the meaning behind what he says. I have been listening to his recent talks quite a lot lately because I am trying to understand better. I don’t disagree with everything he says. He actually says some really interesting things and makes some very good, pithy points sometimes. He has a good sense of humor and he can be quite engaging. I enjoy listening to some of what he says. However, I find some of his attitudes problematic, for the reasons I have stated before on this forum. I don’t need to go through it all again. Other people here have also expressed similar views, and they agree with me, so I am not the only one who questions those particular things he says. Other people would disagree and their views are different. We aren’t all going to agree about everything. I don’t hate DKR, so I am sorry if I have come across as disliking him that much. I just get upset with some of the things he says sometimes and I certainly don’t agree with everything he says, or with some of the things he does, and with things I have heard about him, which have made me distrust him. I don’t feel he is wrong about everything he says though, just on certain issues. I wouldn’t take him as my “Vajra guru” but I don’t mind listening to his talks sometimes.

        1. I thought I’d met my perfect teacher and he turned out to be a lot less perfect than a decent human being. That Sogyal got away with his behaviour for so long does mean there is a problem in the religion. Any of these lamas could be the same; we have no way of knowing. Not permitting criticism and expecting complete obedience are the problem. Students need to seek out teachers who do not demand either because you can’t trust anyone who demands those two things. Trust must be earned. It should not be demanded.

          1. @Tahlia,
            “Any of these lamas could be the same; we have no way of knowing.”
            That’s exactly why I am having trouble trusting any of them right now.

  110. @deborahbouldin,
    When I say, “Oh no, that’s not what he means; This is what he really means…” it isn’t that I feel I have some special insight into DKR’s mind, but sometimes it is possible to guess what someone’s agenda is, especially when they are going around in circles and skirting a particular, sensitive issue. It’s the same thing that politicians do when they are saying something, but not really addressing it in an upfront manner. Often, one can see right through it.

  111. Ah, yes. The problem is you don’t know what’s going on because you don’t know him. You don’t know his life or his idiosyncrasies. You slander him by attributing motives to him that are patently untrue. But you trust your gut, I get that.

  112. Teaching the arising from interdependence,
    No cessation, no birth,
    No nihilism, no eternalism,
    No coming, no going,
    Free from many meanings, free from one meaning,
    You, the teacher of peace, who removes complexity,
    The perfect Buddha, the best among men,
    I prostrate to you.

  113. @deborahbouldin,
    Do you know him either? I know you have studied with him as a teacher, but how much personal time have you spent with him?
    You expect me to not form an opinion about anything a person says until I know them personally? That’s just not realistic. People form opinions, based on what they see and hear, even on the media. Those opinions can be perfectly valid.

    1. “Do you know him either? I know you have studied with him as a teacher, but how much personal time have you spent with him?”
      Personal time is a non sequitur when it comes to teachers. How many hours did you sit at his or her feet receiving teachings? Were you a translator? Were you his secretary?
      A lot of people like to hang out with DJKR, go to dinner, go to clubs, perhaps sleep with him That works for them, not for me. I’ve sat at Rinpoche’s feet for many hours during many teachings over many years. I am uncomfortable saying anything more. I’m not a teacher so my dharma practice is private as it should be. I can tell you Rinpoche’s motivation is pure & his love for the dharma is genuine. That makes it possible to hang in there with him when his FB posts go off the rails or he makes a pointlessly provocative statement.
      He puts up with me and I put up with him. It isn’t glamorous but it is meaningful.

      1. @deborahbouldin,
        From what you have described, it doesn’t sound like you *know* DKR much better than I do. We have different impressions of him, but neither one of us really *KNOWS* him on a personal level, even if you have attended a lot of teachings with him that I haven’t.
        I am sincerely glad that you get some meaning out of his teachings, but please be careful. I am not saying you shouldn’t study with him if he is the right teacher for you, but please try to keep your eyes wide open. Take this advice in the spirit in which it is given, not as someone who is “against’ your teacher, but as someone who is probably a lot older than you, who wishes you well on your path, and who sincerely hopes that you won’t get hurt from “getting too close to the fire,” so to speak.

        1. “From what you have described, it doesn’t sound like you *know* DKR much better than I do. We have different impressions of him, but neither one of us really *KNOWS* him on a personal level, even if you have attended a lot of teachings with him that I haven’t.”
          Oh my god, you really don’t get it, do you? What part of “met him 30 years ago when I was on retreat” do you not understand? He has a whole other teaching life that you don’t have access to. “*KNOWS* him on a personal level” means what to you exactly? Sleeping with him? Driving him around? Yeah, you can get to know someone that way, but is that what you want? Is that what you NEED? I don’t get people like you. You are like the groupies who ooo and ah.Let’s be a fan, yay us. Let’s prop ourselves up and parade in front of the sangha.Who gives a flying squirrel about that shitake? Having lunch with Rinpoche is a frill. It means nothing in terms of liberation. The greatest gift he has given me is that I ~don’t ~have to have lunch with him, I don’t have to raise money for him. I am free to practice and study the dharma with whomever I choose.
          You either love the Buddha or you don’t. You either are inspired to transform your suffering and ignorance or you’re not. Anything else is you deceiving yourself–and we’ve all been there. If you want to be liberated, love the teachings more than the teacher. See the guru as little as possible. Hang out with some other teacher’s sangha if you need company.
          From my dharma heart to yours.

          1. @deborahbouldin,
            Okay, maybe you met him 30 years ago on retreat! You know what? I don’t CARE how you met him or when or how you studied with him. I never said you should have lunch with him or sleep with him. I’m just saying that sitting there listening to a lama giving teachings isn’t really a way to get to know him, even if you began doing that for 100 years! I’m not even saying you *should* know him personally. I think it’s actually better if you DON’T! If you can keep on studying with him and never get burned by personal interactions, then GOOD FOR YOU! I hope you can keep it up! I really do. This conversation has gone on long enough, and I am DONE. Many of the things you’re saying to me now are making no sense! I’m like a groupie, or fan?!?!? Of What?!?!? This is my last post to you.

            1. “I’m just saying that sitting there listening to a lama giving teachings isn’t really a way to get to know him, even if you began doing that for 100 years!”
              Wow, you are crazy if you think you can’t know a teacher by doing retreats with him over the course of 30 years. If you think you can’t know a lama unless you know the color of his underwear, perhaps you should be an attendant. If you do that, try not to undercut the path of people who prefer to hear their gurus speak the dharma instead of passing gas.
              I agree that we are at an impasse.

              1. I feel the need to point out here that many of Sogyal’s students thought they knew him too. I think this is maybe the point Catlover is trying to make. Can an ordinary student ever really know their teacher if they don’t know how he treats his innermost circle? And if his inner circle feels they cannot criticise him then even if you ask, they aren’t going to tell you the bad bits, so this is where the ‘system’ falls down, and why we need to choose teachers who don’t insist on the ‘thou shall not criticise’ injunction.
                Or if you do choose a teacher who does insist on obedience and no criticising, then either make sure you never take an empowerment from them so those injunctions don’t apply to you, or take empowerment knowing his or her terms and understand that he or she can do what they like to you and that if they do something terrible, according to the terms of the contract you have with them you cannot tell anyone. If you’re okay with knowingly putting yourself in a situation where you could be abused, that’s your choice. The point is to know what you’re signing up for.
                Hopefully the teacher will be trustworthy and will behave in a way that won’t cause anyone harm, but the Sogyal debacle shows us that we can’t trust that that will be the case. I certainly didn’t know that I was signing up for a relationship that permitted abuse and that would prevent me from speaking up about it. Had it been put in those terms to me, I would have run a mile in the other direction, but this is what it comes down to. You can give philosophical reasons for the injunctions that sound quite reasonable, but in the end a relationship with those two injunctions laid on the student – obedience and no criticising – does create a situation ripe for abuse. That’s not to say that it will be abused, just that it can be, and we need to be aware of that. We need to ask prospective teachers whether or not they will demand obedience and no criticising if we take empowerment with them, so we know exactly what we’re signing up for.
                Personally, I wouldn’t sign up for a contract like that. No matter how charming a teacher may be. In fact it’s the charming ones you probably most need to watch out for. Luckily we do have choices. There are teachers who don’t demand the spiritual equivalent of an S&M contract without a safe word.

                1. Though I cherished much of what deborah said, I also wondered, when she said, DKR pointed out / points our nature of mind and he is good in that other things she deals differently with, if this is not sth also SL’s students could have said. Many believe / are convinced / experienced SL pointed out their nature of mind…
                  Then there is another point, an open mind, faith (and expectations) can create quite some profound experiences even in the presence of a misleading guru – also followers of Shoko Asahara described extraordinary experiences. The clinging to these experiences made them not believing the accusations against Shoko Ashahara to be true – even when the Sarin gas attack became a fact! Robert Jay Lifton reports about that in his book »Destroying the world in order to save it«.
                  The point is why people can make these experiences might be based on the power of the own mind and the functions / power of faith and openness (remind the placebo effect). Extraordinary experiences with a person is never a prove that the person is genuine! Its just a sign and it needs more investigation.
                  BTW, I heard, that DKR also asks his close students to sign contracts to keep all he does with them secret. Can anybody pls confirm or give information on that? If true, the setup is in my eyes similar dangerous, and it would also create an inner and outer circle.

                  1. Sorry, it should read: deborah said DKR pointed out / points out the nature of mind and he is good in that, other things DKR does, she said, she deals differently with … I wonder, if this (pointing out the nature of mind as a good reason) is not sth also SL’s students could have said.

                    1. @Tenpel: “I wonder if this (pointing out the nature of mind as a good reason) is not sth also SL’s students could have said.”
                      Of course, they could have said it. They might also have experienced it. It still doesn’t give a lama the right to break the law or harm people. Sorry if I sound testy. I need a break.
                      Everyone have a wonderful evening. Metta.

                  2. “BTW, I heard, that DKR also asks his close students to sign contracts to keep all he does with them secret. Can anybody pls confirm or give information on that? If true, the setup is in my eyes similar dangerous, and it would also create an inner and outer circle.”
                    Shitake! or horse manure if you prefer. Now I am angry. I’m not responding to these lies and slander anymore.

                    1. Hey deborah. I don’t spread lies or slander. Sorry, if my comment upsets you!
                      This contract thing was told me a while ago by a person who also added some (shocking) stories. He knows DKR personally. However, except him, I don’t have a source which approved it. That’s why I am asking now.
                      Its a claim by one person – though I can’t see a reason why he would have lied.
                      I didn’t ask anybody so far if he or she can confirm or not confirm it. If there are close students who say, this is BS, please do so. If there are close students who know this is the case, pls say it.
                      I asked for approval / disapproval.
                      (The (shocking) stories I’ve never shared in public. But I think its right to use the opportunity to ask if the contract claim is true.)

                    2. @tenpel “If there are close students who say, this is BS, please do so. If there are close students who know this is the case, pls say it.”
                      I’m a close student & I told you it’s shitake.

                2. @Tahlia “I feel the need to point out here that many of Sogyal’s students thought they knew him too. I think this is maybe the point Catlover is trying to make. Can an ordinary student ever really know their teacher if they don’t know how he treats his innermost circle? And if his inner circle feels they cannot criticise him then even if you ask, they aren’t going to tell you the bad bits, so this is where the ‘system’ falls down, and why we need to choose teachers who don’t insist on the ‘thou shall not criticise’ injunction.”
                  Dzongsar Khyentse isn’t Sogyal & SI has never been as big as Rigpa. We met in small groups with what you would call the inner circle. We had interviews every year.We were free to express our disagreements & doubts during teachings. I’ve been free to ask Rinpoche & the inner circle questions when I’ve had doubts. I’m sorry that wasn’t your experience if that’s the situation you desired.
                  What makes you think you have to “obey” a teacher? who told you there was a truly existing place called Vajra Hell & you would be stuck there eternally? There are a lot of misconceptions about vows. If you don’t do what a teacher requires of his students, he can stop teaching you, but will s/he? It’s simple respect. Respect yourself enough to be authentic & tell your teacher you can’t do something he suggests. Be respectful to the teacher and demand that he be respectful of you. You can walk away or learn to discern what’s a violation and what’s a bad mood because someone has a migraine.It isn’t easy but it’s worthwhile.
                  Thank you for this blog, Thalia. I am so sorry you and others have had this experience with Sogyal.

                3. @Tahlia,
                  “I feel the need to point out here that many of Sogyal’s students thought they knew him too. I think this is maybe the point Catlover is trying to make. Can an ordinary student ever really know their teacher if they don’t know how he treats his innermost circle? And if his inner circle feels they cannot criticise him then even if you ask, they aren’t going to tell you the bad bits….”
                  That’s exactly what I was trying to point out. Thank you for clarifying.

                4. @Tahlia,
                  “Or if you do choose a teacher who does insist on obedience and no criticising, then either make sure you never take an empowerment from them so those injunctions don’t apply to you, or take empowerment knowing his or her terms and understand that he or she can do what they like to you and that if they do something terrible, according to the terms of the contract you have with them you cannot tell anyone. If you’re okay with knowingly putting yourself in a situation where you could be abused, that’s your choice. The point is to know what you’re signing up for.”
                  That is pretty much what DKR was saying during his talks.

                  1. @Tahlia,
                    Of course, DKR expanded on that by saying that Sogyal went wrong when he did NOT warn some of his students about what they were signing up for.
                    The problem with this is that no matter how “prepared” one might feel, it can still be too much when the time comes, especially if the teacher decides to be abusive, (like in Sogyal’s case).

  114. ON BODHICITTA:
    The Compassionate Heart of the Enlightened Mind
    It is the supreme elixir
    That overcomes the sovereignty of death.
    It is the inexhaustible treasure
    That eliminates poverty in the world.
    It is the supreme medicine
    That quells the world’s disease.
    It is the tree that shelters all beings
    Wandering and tired on the path of conditioned existence.
    It is the universal bridge
    That leads to freedom from unhappy states of birth.
    It is the dawning moon of the mind
    That dispels the torment of disturbing conceptions.
    It is the great sun that finally removes
    The misty ignorance of the world.
    SHANTIDEVA

  115. There is still the point that these lamas knew of Sogyal’s antics and didn’t do anything. They could have stopped people from being harmed by stopping him and doing ‘wrathful practices’ or whatever they do to stop harm years ago. But OTR tells the students they will go to vajra hell, KN worse, and DKR is giving some wishy washy talks with only a few minutes directed at the real issue of the abused. If these lamas had bodhicitta and if they had the future of the dharma in mind, that is. And suddenly vajrayana is ‘in jeopardy’…. but I digress.
    So I am not letting DKR and OTR and KN off the hook here. One person wrote that Sogyal sent one of his female attendants to OT to sleep with him, that she didn’t want to go, then she eventually did. That is shocking to me. It was a harem.
    I continue to wonder to what level Sogyal’s guest lamas participated and knew. And that is why I don’t believe DKR is the white knight riding in to save the vajrayana. That is my mind and my projections but it seems a very dodgy situation, like a fraternity house gone wrong.
    Though lamas don’t have oversight, they have colleagues with differing views, and that is why I would like them all to debate and discuss in the true Buddhist way, men and women.

    1. Concerned, I am right there with you. I have been choking on outrage for over a year. I think OT was the worst, but I only heard a clip of KN’s remarks at the end of those teachings. To me he’s Khenpo & I can’t see him in a harsh light. I was sad about his remarks. I think Tibetan lamas cannot divorce themselves from Tibetan cultural values, even the great ones like Khen Rinpoche. It’s up to us to establish a western buddhadharma, one that skims off the feudalism & the hierarchy if at all possible.
      More than that it’s up to us to continue practicing the dharma we’ve received. Teachers die, lose their way. Why throw everything away? We can live with Mahayana sanghas & practice tantra on the side. If vajrayana dies out because the sexism & cultural bias of teachers renders it ineffective in modern societies, so be it. That’s impermanence.

    1. Making merit. Blessing the forum with genuine dharma. Our intentions may be good but not as good as Shantideva’s wisdom.

  116. I didn’t watch the whole series of DJKR’s talks and I may have a wrong understanding. From my perspective, the underlying logic is: there is no abuse if the adults gave their consent with the situation occuring. When you take a samaya with all the proper requirements and preparation, then you accept that whatever the guru does, you perceive all his actions as the actions of a Buddha. So you agree with all his actions and if you are part of the action, you are automatically a consenting adult. Still, you have the possibility to say no and go away but never to criticize the actions of the guru.
    The mistake from Sogyal Rinpoche was to not explain clearly those rules to some of his students, which has caused them some harm. But except this bad application of the Vajrayana in term of proper preparation of the students, there was no abuse but just skillful means.
    Of course, the students must investigate the teacher and his actions before taking the samaya.
    Did I understand well the underlying logic of DJKR or did he say something different in his talks?
    I wonder also how the potential outsider students can investigate about some unconventional methods from the guru? When those actions are hidden and the “initiated” students don’t have the right to reveal them as they are supposed to be “secret” and it would be perceived as a critic from their part?

    1. @French Observer,
      Just to be clear, I didn’t agree with DKR’s logic on this issue, but you summed it up and understood what he said perfectly, imo.

    2. @French Observer He did also say that gurus have the responsibility to not damage the seed of bodhicitta, pure perception or guru devotion in their students, and that a guru must make sure that prospective students have the information they need to make a decision about them, and also that it is wrong for a guru’s entourage to keep information from prospective students.

  117. @French Observer,
    I think you understood DKR’s recent talks perfectly. That’s how I understood what he said on those issues too.
    “I wonder also how the potential outsider students can investigate about some unconventional methods from the guru? When those actions are hidden and the “initiated” students don’t have the right to reveal them as they are supposed to be “secret” and it would be perceived as a critic from their part?”
    I wonder the same thing.

  118. @ concerned is right, what happened to Tibetan style debate the Tibetan way. Where they get all mad and angry and slap there hands aggressively making a point. And had open dialogue and communication where you could see who makes sense and who doesn’t. Really if we are going to judge people we really do need to see them challenged and debated. Anyone can put on act. Politicians are superb at it. But to see two people have a intellectual spar of ideas is really much needed, that should be the basis of choosing a teacher. @frenchobserver also makes a very obvious point that how are students supposed to discern a teacher if there is no transparency?
    Also my friend in DKJR’s sangha was told that the women who accused Sogyal were lying and were trying to seek special attention from their lama from DKJR’s top attendants, and there was an aspiration prayers were to be sent to these deluded beings so they may achieve peace and enlightenment.
    The accusations of the women were dismissed and the women essentially blamed for their ‘obscurations’ by DKJR, his nephew Pawo and the attendants.
    If this is true DKJR lied on this europeon tour saying he wanted to warn people about Sogyal but felt like he couldn’t because it might cause infighting amongst the lama’s and he might be slandered as spreading gossip. Actually, if these enlightened and omniscient beings start infighting because they have a problem with truth being revealed and wage war against each other how enlightened are they?? Do these sound like people we should have pure perception of? Isn’t the guru mandala dissolved after practice? Why does this devotion carry on in extra curricular activities. It’s not normal even in the east that these lama’s are lauded as rockstars and are supposed to served all the time.
    If DKJR was worried about people not believing him as the reason for not informing either the public or even helping the victim’s lawyers which would have allowed him to give private support, he should be fired from his post.
    The story from friend though seems to imply that DKJR not only did not stand against Sogyal like he supposedly wanted to but sent out disinformation in his sangha refuting the claims.
    I can’t accept this ‘when he teaches in private he is serious and correct’ what does that mean?? Based on your imperfect judgement, remember the reason you have a guru is because you acknowledge you are a deluded being and here we have @catlover who doesn’t feel she needs one or at least not Khyentse would mean she is more awake than @deberah, I really don’t mean to offend but that should be a valid consideration @deberah?
    @Marge makes a great point that just as much Deberah believes that DKJR is the correct incarnation of his very imperfect predecessor we only believe DKJR is the heart son because we CHOOSE to BELIEVE. There is no evidence DKJR is a a heart son as the opposite. @ Deberoh since you did not know dilgo how can you know for sure. You only believe because another imperfect being who you believe to be perfect told you to believe the status quo and you do not question it.
    So Tibetan Buddhism in the form DKJR’s students receive it has become a rigid ideology, a solid thing worth defending, that is immutable and inherently solid, and life changing. This sort hypocrisy coming from Buddhists is unacceptable. Even the truth is empty. Form is emptiness and emptiness is form. And Buddhism has many different ideologies within it and same with Tibetan Buddhism, it is a constantly evolving and devolving and evolving stream of ideas that not even Tibetans in the same sect were in complete accord. Tibetan Buddhism itself is so very different from what the Buddha originally taught and much was reinvented at Nalanda by tantric adepts.
    I always find practitioners who have not found enlightenment and speak in such devotional ways about how they ‘know’ their master and then disparage non believer’s or those who feel better than the guru. Maybe @catlover is more awakened than DKJR that could be a possibility why she doesn’t feel the need to study under him. In which case I would like to be @catlover’s disciple.
    If so and they had so much faith they would not need to convince others, it’s a sign of insecurity to hang on for many years around a guru. The longer you hang on could possibly mean the more insecure. If it’s the lightening path, it’s traveling slower than sound. Plus many of the people with vision and who are very wise and charitable beings are atheists. Where is the Vajrayana graduate class, they all seem to expire with the teacher.
    I’m thinking of taking up DKJR’s robes when he becomes a filmmaker. And taking over his sangha!!! Please don’t work for Weinstein Rinpoche, I don’t want to see another cover up..
    JUST JOKING! Can his sangha take a joke and not ban me from posting, I am doing prostrations for that heretical remark now

    1. @Dan,
      Thanks for your post. You really made my day, especially with the comment, “Maybe @catlover is more awakened than DKJR that could be a possibility why she doesn’t feel the need to study under him. In which case I would like to be @catlover’s disciple.” 🙂
      Please, don’t ever say you want to become my disciple, lol! I don’t want to be anyone’s guru, LOL! 😀

      1. @catlover … but it’s not that hard to be a guru these days. just make up some exotic story. I would like to see a female western lama gather a bunch of young Tibetan and Bhutanese men and tell them how to dress and gather a few of the good looking young naive ones around you and tell them how special they are, sleep with them, even rape them, make them crawl around like dogs, hit them, work them day and night on your behalf, have a couple of them stay up all night every night in case you need a late night snack, tell all of your Tibetan and Bhutanese disciples they must give large offerings and to stuff the envelopes but they must put their names on the envelope, humiliate them regularly. then invite your female lama friends around and make sure your young male students pamper them and satisfy them in every possible way, and have your ‘sangha’ pay them very generously. they love it all- what a great gig!
        Then if those disciples eventually wisen up to you, just run away and send your female lama friends in to ‘straighten out’ the situation. no problem.
        You can do it catlover. vajrayana is apparently at risk because not we students don’t seem to understand nor respect this twisted version.
        I